Here is an interesting question that reveals a theological/doctrinal conundrum for most of Christendom.
Was Jesus on Mt. Sinai?
Before answering that question, let’s consider what all of normative believers in Messiah know to be truth,
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. John 1:1-3
And,
For [a]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [b]is before all things, and in Him all things [c]hold together. Col. 1:16-17
Clearly, the Messiah was present at or, actually, before Creation!
Even the authoritative Aramaic translation of the Torah, Targum Onkelos, reads,
And they heard the voice of the Word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening of the day (Gen. 3:8)….. Behold now the heavens, and number the stars, if thou art able to number them; and He said to him, So will be thy sons.[12]And he believed in the Word of the Lord, (Memra da Yeya,) and He reckoned it to him unto justification. (Gen. 15:6)
It acknowledges the presence of ‘the Word of the Lord’ at Creation and in dozens of other places in the Torah!
So, Was Jesus/Yeshua at Mt. Sinai?
Let’s consider one other concept, before answering that.
Even if they do not always agree on the finer points of the ‘echad’ (one/united) nature of the Father and the Son, Christendom widely regards Jesus/Yeshua as being of the same essence, and in perfect unity with the Father.
Messianic Rabbi Itzhak Shapira would argue for Yeshua as a ‘manifestation of the Father,’ demonstrating one perspective of the connection between Father and Son from a very Judaic source.
The bottom line is that even Yeshua said, ‘I and the Father are one,’ and ‘If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.’
So, knowing that Jesus/Yeshua was at Creation and acknowledging His unity with the Father, was He at Mt. Sinai during the giving of the Torah?
Frankly, that seems like a total ‘no-brainer,’ but prior to digging deeper in the Scriptures, I’m not sure I ever contemplated the answer, or more importantly, the implications!!
Consider Exodus 24:9-11,
Then Moses went up [a]with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet [b]there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, [c]as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Besides having this wonderful flavor of the Divine Holy One desiring so much to be with His people and seeing that desire manifest again at the ‘Last Supper’ as He eats with His people, this is an amazing account of humans in the presence of the Living God.
BUT, can humans see God the Father face to face?
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. John 1:18
And,
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. John 6:46
I think it is clear from multiple angles that Jesus/Yeshua was on Mt. Sinai, and He is the One Moses spoke with and the elders ate with.
Why is this significant?
Well, the Torah, God’s instructions, sometimes called ‘Law,’ was given on Mt. Sinai and Moses knew God face to face. Additionally, parts of the Torah were spoken from the Mountain directly to Israel. Targum Onkelos translates Exodus 19:16-17 as,
And it was the third day at morning; and there were voices, and lightnings, and mighty clouds upon the mountain, and the voice of the trumpet exceedingly strong; and all the people trembled who were in the camp. And Mosheh led forth the people out of the camp to meet the Word of the Lord; and they stood at the lower parts of the mount.
Jesus/Yeshua gave the Law!
Let that sink in!
Yeshua gave the Law!!!
This poses a sizable conundrum for most of Christendom that argues that Jesus ‘did away with the Law.’
The theological and doctrinal implications are staggering.
Yeshua also said,
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. John 14:15
Ponder the sheer gravity of that statement and its implications!
Do you know what His commandments really are?
Got Torah?
____________________
Other related thoughts: James 4:12 refers to Yeshua as the Lawgiver.
Could Yeshua die for a covenant His Father made? Or, was He ‘sent’ before the covenant was made, and was HE the One who made the covenant with Israel, the Bride?
Who walked through the pieces at the Abrahamic Covenant? Gen. 15:1 says ‘the Word of the Lord’ came to Abram… Did Yeshua make that covenant as well? (I think so…)
____________________
And, a personal aside: Pondering this is so HUGE, that it makes me giddy with excitement and filled with a holy fear/dread all at the same time! No wonder Rav Sha’ul would burst into praise saying,
Oh, the depth of the riches [a]both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him [b]that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory [c]forever. Amen.
______________
Added 3/24/14: Here is an excellent post I was reminded of that deals with this same topic from some different directions further confirming the presence of Yeshua on Mt. Sinai!
natsab 
Thank you for this post! Excellent!
This revelation does fill one with joyous and fearful excitement.
Blessings.
Deborah
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there is an excellent teaching concerning the Eternal Blood Covenants of YHVH. In chapter 7, The appearances of YHVH and the pre incarnation appearances of Yeshua are examined; even relating to the burning lamp of Gen. 12 and the Male visitor of Gen. 18, along with the Angel YHVH mentioned throughout the Tanakh. see Kirk CarMichael.
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I am new to the HRM but I think these verses show that Christ was the lawgiver in Sinai.
1 Corinthians 10
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
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Mike,
Shalom and welcome!
YES! And, actually, that whole passage that Rav Shaul uses… I Cor. 10:1-11 directly connects Yeshua, the Rock, and the Torah as a whole as instructive and prophetic ‘for our instruction upon whom the ends of the ages have come!’
Here is another cool related verse I found earlier this week while reading: Acts 7:38 “This is the one who who was in the congregation (ekklesia) in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mt. Sinai and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.”
Bang! The church, the qahal, the congregation, the assembly in the wilderness received instruction through Moses from the ‘angel’ who we have already seen is the Mashiach!!
Glad you are here. Feel free to look around and participate.
Shalom!
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Reblogged this on Joyfully Growing In Torah and commented:
An excellent article that dives into the implications of Who Messiah actually is. Most Christians would agree that Jesus/Yeshua is God, but then they turn around and deny that He is the Author of the Torah.
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Thank you so much for the reblog. I pray you and yours are blessed.
Shalom!
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Hebrews 1 says differently. What you are offering is a re-worded trinity doctrine. Jesus is the HEIR of the father. You cannot be your own heir. Jesus is SEATED at the father’s right hand. In Revelation 4 and 5, Jesus, the Lion and the Lamb, takes the scroll FROM the hand of the father. Again, John 17. “I pray that they (the disciples) may be one, even as we are one.” One person? NO!!! But one in spirit and purpose.
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David,
Thank you for stopping by and interacting.
I believe the connections in the Godhead are far closer than Christendom would have us believe. Christendom seeks to divide the Father and Son in order to set them against each other concerning the Torah, and that is the primary thrust of this post. Yeshua gave the Torah. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I have published a series on this blog in the recent past demonstrating the connected/’echad’/unified nature of Father and Son. See,
Who is… The Holy One of Israel?
Who is… The Redeemer?
Who is… The Alpha and the Omega?
Who is… The Savior?
And, I think you will also enjoy and be challenged by Before the Foundations of the World! Implications…
I look forward to your thoughts…
Shalom!
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I realize now that I can’t trust the book of Hebrews, nor Paul’s writings; they simply contradict the Torah, Prophets and Psalms. In fact, they misquote the TPP as well as twist and misapply the TPP to create Paul’s distinctive doctrines. Christians do not know how to test and evaluate Paul’s writings because they do not really ‘know’ the TPP; they do not know much about the Hebrew language, let alone Paleo Hebrew, and they really don’t want to know. For the most comprehensive treatment of this subject, see: questioningpaul.com or blessyahowah.com where it is also posted. I know this is difficult to swallow, but check it out.
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Actually, Sarah, I would disagree on Paul. He has indeed been misunderstood, mostly because we fail to understand the context of Second temple Judaism, proselyte conversion, etc… Once we understand those dynamics we can understand what/who Paul was speaking to. (JK McKee’s Acts 15 for the Practical Messianic and Tim Hegg’s Fellow Heirs or Romans really help unravel Paul.)
119ministries.com has a terrific series called the Pauline Paradox that digs deeply into Paul, Christian theology and what the Word really says in light of the Torah.
I have stated before that when we get to the New Jerusalem we’ll know who Paul is because he’ll be the guy wearing the neon green shirt that says, “I do not think I said what you think you heard.”
Hebrews and Paul are solid and NOT at odds with Torah once understood within the proselyte/Second Temple context.
Blessings,
Pete
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I would love you to try making your argument based on Tanakh alone.
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Consider Exodus 34:5, “5 The Lord descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the Lord.”
See it in the context of the chapter where Moshe is receiving the tablets.
Have you ever considered the remez pictures of Yeshua in the story of Yosef? The connections are too many to be swept away… https://natsab.com/2013/11/19/jesus-yeshua-as-pictured-in-joseph-part-1/ The statistical improbabilities are beyond astronomical.
Blessings.
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Reblogged this on The Lamb's Servant and commented:
An excellent short summary of the facts pointing to Y’shua’s presence at Mount Sinai. Thanks, Pete Rambo (Natsab)
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Ah, the wonder of the Word! New discoveries daily astound those who allow the Word to speak to them rather than hearing what they believe! Thanks Pete, again, for the courage to post what is so clear but which rattles the proverbial theological cages! It turns out that what appeared so fresh in John 1:1, was really a rehash of what the passage in Exodus truly says! Be encouraged and I hope the giddy feeling keeps returning and returning as we discover what God has hidden in HIs revelation! Wonderful!
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Thanks, brother. Truly this is an amazing journey. So fun to see the whole Word tied together.
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Pete
You never brought up Deut 4 which clearly explains that no image or likeness of G-d was seen on Mt.Sinai. Dispelling your weak reference to your god.
Your using rabbinical methods of exegesis (which we know you don’t like the “Rabbis”) in a distorted fashion.
The remez NEVER DEPARTS FROM THE P’SHAT (Plain meaning, the in context saying).
Yoshke isn’t on Mt.Sinai. And he definitely isn’t giving the Torah to Moses.
Your choosing to use circular reasoning for your argument in “proving” your hybrid man god was at Sinai. Why not be honest with the text?? Is that to hard??
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Ah, Bruce. Context, context, context. Deuteronomy 4 speaks to all Israel. They saw no form, however Exodus 24 deals with a very small select group and the P’SHAT CLEARLY SAYS, “they SAW the God of Israel…’
Targum Yerushlayim clearly says for Exodus 20:1 that ‘ the Memra de Yeya spoke all these excellencies…’
I love you brother. I’ll be praying for ya.
Shavua tov.
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Pete please pray for yourself that you will find the fortitude to turn to the true G-d of Israel and away from idolatry of worshiping a mortal man, a creature in place of G-d.
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Mishle 30:4Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
4 Who hath ascended into Shomayim, or descended? Who hath gathered ruach in the hollows of His hands? Who hath bound the mayim in a cloak? Who hath established all the afsei aretz (ends of the earth)? What is Shmo (His Name), and what is Shem Bno (the Name of His Son [See Memra, creative Word of G-d in Targumim]), if thou canst tell?
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Well Jesus did not do eye fo an eye.Unless it was literal.He did not stone the adulterer rather had mercy.So he didn’t go torah rather he made new commandments which like paul said made the old law void.
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Soul,
Welcome, and thanks for stopping by.
It appears you have several common misunderstandings here…
First, IF Jesus/Yeshua taught against the Torah, or in any way diminished the righteous requirement of the Torah, then He sinned and disqualified Himself as the Messiah. Deuteronomy 12:32-13:5. Further, by His own words, “I did NOT come to abolish the Torah or the prophets…” So, we need to dig further.
Let’s tackle ‘eye for an eye.’ You are referring to Exodus 21:24 and Leviticus 24:20 as compared to Yeshua’s teaching on the Mount in Matthew 5:38. Note, this is in the same sermon and chapter wherein He says, “I did NOT come to abolish the Torah…” In context, the one offended (tooth knocked out, eye damaged, whether by accident or intent) has the authority and option NOT to press charges, which is exactly Yeshua’s point. Do not return evil for evil. This does NOT void the Law, rather, it allows the one offended to offer mercy/grace, which is the fulfillment of Leviticus 19:18.
On the adulteress, you are referring to John 8 where it says, “The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, ‘Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?’ This they said to TEST him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground.”
Yeshua upheld the Torah, but because we didn’t/don’t know the Law, we assume He overturned it. Leviticus 20:10 says, “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.” He passed the ‘test’ wherein they wanted to see if He knew the Torah.
Reference Paul, I would offer Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.” That directly contradicts your statement.
I would ask you, if the Torah is done away with, how do we define sin?
Shalom!
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Thank you so much for this posting.
I asked “DO YOU THINK it was Jesus who met with Moses on Sinai?”
I was seeking the reflective thoughts of a humble servant of the Lord, not some proud authoritative proclamation from another follower of Yeshua was perhaps was forgetting that “we know in part….”
I hear the gentleness and the kindness and the humility in you words, and also the excitement. And what you have shared is just what I was looking for and will be greatly moved by and, I think, transformed, as I ponder your words of wisdom and the wonderful references in the Word which you have shared.
You say it so well: in one sense it is a no brainer, and at the other end of the spectrum of understanding it is so profound that one moment we may be overcome with the gravity of these realizations and in another find ourselves giddy. You write so well, so simply, and clearly, humbly, yet with great wisdom from God (I am convinced) and even still with the open mind and heart of one still seeking to know and understand all that the Holy Spirit has to share (as in your parenthetical aside “I think so”).
I agree with JI Packer’s assertion in Knowing God, that the purpose of greater and deeper knowledge and understanding of the Word of God is only to help us keep from sinning. May it be.
Grace, peace, obedience and manifold other blessings be yours in Jeshua, our Lord and Savior.
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Thank you for your kind words of encouragement.
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I have several questions concerning your understanding. I don’t want to seem as though I am trying to discredit what you are saying in this post. On the contrary, I am seeking to find the truth of YeHoVaH’s word as it was delivered to the saints at Mt. Sinai. Therefore, I hope that we can have a discerning conversation about this article and other similar discussions.
My question first is your quoting of Exodus 24:9-13. I looked up the Scriptures involved and then sat down with the JPS Jewish Study Bible and read the commentaries there. I also looked up the word “saw” in Brown-Driver-Briggs’. H7200 which is defined as… to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider. Therefore, the literal translation could be any of those definitions. It does not necessarily mean that the people actually saw YHVH, they may have perceived Him through the blue of the sky or the “clear sapphire pavement.” A mental image may have been given to them. So my question is if no man can look upon YHVH’s face and live how could they have saw him and lived? Even Moshe could only see Yah’s “hinder parts.”
Second is John 14:9 – Jesus replied, “Philip, don’t you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him? So are you equating the physical attributes of Messiah to the Father based on this verse?
These are just a couple of the questions I have not just for you but for anyone that can give me some information. I will leave it at these two questions to begin with; I hope to hear from you soon!
Shalom
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Ariel,
My apologies that this comment somehow got overlooked.
A couple of my recent Angel of the Lord posts probably answer your questions, but the short is this: Scripture attests that God cannot be seen at any time, nor His voice heard, yet over and over the Angel of the Lord/the Angel of God says and does things only God can do and speaks with the authority of God. Bottom-line, Yeshua is the visible and interactive presence of God that man can see and talk to. Even Judaism teaches there is a ‘lesser YHVH’ that comes from the bosom of God.
Rabbi Itzahk Shapira has an excellent book exploring Judaic thought on the Moshiach titled Return of the Kosher Pig. I highly recommend it.
Blessings.
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