Here is an interesting question that reveals a theological/doctrinal conundrum for most of Christendom.
Was Jesus on Mt. Sinai?
Before answering that question, let’s consider what all of normative believers in Messiah know to be truth,
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. John 1:1-3
And,
For [a]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [b]is before all things, and in Him all things [c]hold together. Col. 1:16-17
Clearly, the Messiah was present at or, actually, before Creation!
Even the authoritative Aramaic translation of the Torah, Targum Onkelos, reads,
And they heard the voice of the Word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening of the day (Gen. 3:8)….. Behold now the heavens, and number the stars, if thou art able to number them; and He said to him, So will be thy sons.[12]And he believed in the Word of the Lord, (Memra da Yeya,) and He reckoned it to him unto justification. (Gen. 15:6)
It acknowledges the presence of ‘the Word of the Lord’ at Creation and in dozens of other places in the Torah!
So, Was Jesus/Yeshua at Mt. Sinai?
Let’s consider one other concept, before answering that.
Even if they do not always agree on the finer points of the ‘echad’ (one/united) nature of the Father and the Son, Christendom widely regards Jesus/Yeshua as being of the same essence, and in perfect unity with the Father.
Messianic Rabbi Itzhak Shapira would argue for Yeshua as a ‘manifestation of the Father,’ demonstrating one perspective of the connection between Father and Son from a very Judaic source.
The bottom line is that even Yeshua said, ‘I and the Father are one,’ and ‘If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.’
So, knowing that Jesus/Yeshua was at Creation and acknowledging His unity with the Father, was He at Mt. Sinai during the giving of the Torah?
Frankly, that seems like a total ‘no-brainer,’ but prior to digging deeper in the Scriptures, I’m not sure I ever contemplated the answer, or more importantly, the implications!!
Consider Exodus 24:9-11,
Then Moses went up [a]with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet [b]there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, [c]as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Besides having this wonderful flavor of the Divine Holy One desiring so much to be with His people and seeing that desire manifest again at the ‘Last Supper’ as He eats with His people, this is an amazing account of humans in the presence of the Living God.
BUT, can humans see God the Father face to face?
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. John 1:18
And,
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. John 6:46
I think it is clear from multiple angles that Jesus/Yeshua was on Mt. Sinai, and He is the One Moses spoke with and the elders ate with.
Why is this significant?
Well, the Torah, God’s instructions, sometimes called ‘Law,’ was given on Mt. Sinai and Moses knew God face to face. Additionally, parts of the Torah were spoken from the Mountain directly to Israel. Targum Onkelos translates Exodus 19:16-17 as,
And it was the third day at morning; and there were voices, and lightnings, and mighty clouds upon the mountain, and the voice of the trumpet exceedingly strong; and all the people trembled who were in the camp. And Mosheh led forth the people out of the camp to meet the Word of the Lord; and they stood at the lower parts of the mount.
Jesus/Yeshua gave the Law!
Let that sink in!
Yeshua gave the Law!!!
This poses a sizable conundrum for most of Christendom that argues that Jesus ‘did away with the Law.’
The theological and doctrinal implications are staggering.
Yeshua also said,
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. John 14:15
Ponder the sheer gravity of that statement and its implications!
Do you know what His commandments really are?
Got Torah?
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Other related thoughts: James 4:12 refers to Yeshua as the Lawgiver.
Could Yeshua die for a covenant His Father made? Or, was He ‘sent’ before the covenant was made, and was HE the One who made the covenant with Israel, the Bride?
Who walked through the pieces at the Abrahamic Covenant? Gen. 15:1 says ‘the Word of the Lord’ came to Abram… Did Yeshua make that covenant as well? (I think so…)
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And, a personal aside: Pondering this is so HUGE, that it makes me giddy with excitement and filled with a holy fear/dread all at the same time! No wonder Rav Sha’ul would burst into praise saying,
Oh, the depth of the riches [a]both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him [b]that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory [c]forever. Amen.
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Added 3/24/14: Here is an excellent post I was reminded of that deals with this same topic from some different directions further confirming the presence of Yeshua on Mt. Sinai!
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Good Platform to learn more of word God.I am grateful. Thanks a lot.
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Yes, It was Christ Himself as God in nature or as an angel of the Lord who gave the law to Moses. This is confermed in the New Testement as truth. See Acts 7:53, 2 Corint. 3:3 and Galations 3:19. THESE TRUTH CANNOT BE DENIED. More at Sabbath Light Ministry!
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Very interesting! The one thing that has helped me to understand this, particularly about Echad vs Yachad, is the fact that I am ONE person, I am Jennifer…and YHVH knew me before I was born, so I existed before I was born as a flesh & blood person, was manifest as a human being…but I am also a daughter, a sister, a wife, and a mother. Hmmm…Are those different manifestations, or are they different roles/responsibilities. Echad is ONE, becoming many, while Yachad is many becoming one, as in the Body of Messiah. Does that make sense?
I don’t have a “ministry”, and I thought I would throw this in, to shed some light…you all can throw it out if you want. Like a lot of people, my life was a mess, many years ago, and Abba YHVH took my mess, and turned it into a message, and has given me a ministry, although it is an informal one…and what I share doesn’t cost anyone any money. It was freely given to me, so I freely give it to others.
One more thing, as I have perused this site, I have been captivated by the farming aspect of earthly living. I separate our ives into what I call “sweat of the brow” crops and “dress the Garden” crops. We plant, plow and harvest certain crops, but sometimes, YHVH surprises us with, for instance, “white mulberries”, which we did NOT plant! He has also given us regular mulberries, and a black raspberry bramble at the back of our property. Someone shared with us some “winter onions”, which come back by themselves, year after year, and there are crab apple trees that have grown up on the property, among other gifts. Of course, we can use those fruitful gifts! We have “stalked the wild asparagus”, but since have started our own asparagus bed, which grows on it’s own year by year, once established. We only have 2 1/2 acres, but for a little over 40 years, have eaten produce from this small parcel. We do use the “system”, now, more than we ever did, since we have gotten older. Before we grew almost all our own crops in 3 30′ by 40′ foot plots…and we canned, froze & dried food. One year, I picked apples in a local orchard and each day, I was allowed to bring home a bag of windfalls, which we would process after my husband and I came home from work, and the kids finished school…we would clear the dishes and peel apples to freeze, or dry, or make apple sauce or apple butter. Same with Brussels Sprouts…we would have an assembly line and pick over the Sprouts, blanch them and freeze them on cookie sheets before transferring them to bags for storage in the freezer. We also planted a Saskatoon (Serviceberry) tree, which is ripening as I write this. Yum!
We ALL need to think these things through, about YHVH and His Son, Messiah Yeshua…so that there isn’t a “mess” in Messianic! Too many of us have our own presuppositons, and are more than willing to beat others over the head with them! There really is so much to learn, and we must be gracious to one another. For instance, I haven’t read anything about the Covenant of Moab on this site. Everyone really should investigate it, as understanding this helps clear up a lot of the confusion about which “Law” was “added because of transgression”, and which covenant of Hebrews was the “old covenant”, which was “becoming old and obsolete and was passing away”. Since, according to 1 John 3:4, “sin is transgression of the Law”, which “Law” was John talking about? At Sinai, there was NO Levitical priesthood, NO tabernacle/temple, and NO prescribed altar sacrifices for sin! Sinai was shortly after Israel left Egypt, whereas Moab was approximately 39 1/2 years later, just outside the Promised Land, and did contain instructions for those added things. This understanding did NOT originate with me, Check out creatorscovenant.org. Also, see Galatians 3:15, for further information. We ALL desperately need this information! And, BTW, we are NOT being “reformed”, but TRANSFORMED! Reformation is external, transformation is INTERNAL! Just as motivation is external and INSPIRATION is INTERNAL! Also, I want to throw this in, too…the difference between a test and a temptation: The tester wants us to pass, the tempter wants us to fail. YHVH tests us, but never tempts us! Ha Satan tempts us!
BTW, my favorite prophetess in the Tanakh is Hulda, which means “weasel”. A very ordinary woman, with a more than ordinary name, but was used by YHVH.
Much more to be said, but I don’t want to monopolize the forum. 🙂
Baruch B’Shem Yeshua, (The Lion of the Tribe of Yehudah, who upholds the Torah and abolished sin) NOT Gentile, Aryan jesus, who abolished the Law/Torah of YHVH and upholds sin!
Jennifer
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Our Savior God is amazing. He said He is not altogether like us! So true! Great article. I loved the part you shared from Genesis 15:1 where the Word of the Lord came to Abram!
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Brother Pete, Thanks for the update and comments! As I have prayed and studied over the past year or so, I have come to understand that if humans were created in YAH’s image, then they were spirit beings, because Creator YHVH IS a Spirit Being. This is the light side of the Supernatural, not the dark side. The “living soul” thing, once again, is a spiritual image, NOT a bodily image. The “living soul” was meant to dwell for eternity with the Creator, and our earthly flesh & blood bodies are subject to dis-ease, death and decay, and are a result of the Fall of mankind. When we die, if we have been redeemed, we will inherit,once again, those supernatural immortal bodies, when “mortality puts on immortality”. All of the human “progress” and activity on this earth will be all for naught, when there is a “new heaven and a new earth”! Hallelu YAH!!!! We ALL need to be about our Father’s business of going into all nations, preaching the Gospel, making disciples and teaching them to obey all that He has commanded us. We are supposed to be converting the Hell out of others, NOT bombing the Hell out of them!! If we give others the Gospel, and call them into obedience to it, they won’t even want to disobey! The New/Renewed Covenant promise is declared in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and the fulfillment is declared in Hebrews 8:8-10. And it was to be made with and was made with “the House of Israel/Joseph/Ephraim and with the House of Yehudah”. Gentiles are wild branches who can be grafted into, contrary to nature, the good and cultivated Olive Tree of (redeemed, believing remnant) ‘Israel’, ” NOT into modern nation/state ‘Israel’. The reason for the statement, “contrary to nature”, is because in the natural world, good branches are most often grafted into wild rootstock because wild rootstock is cold & winter hardy, drought & heat tolerant, and disease and insect resistant. Gentile are NOT their own “new Gentile olive tree” that abolishes YAH’s divine, eternal Torah and then makes up its own “laws” as they go along! Another significant issue is that the Virgin Birth did NOT allow a human male to participate. Not even “righteous Joseph”. Contrary to what most “pro-life” activists assert, that “we are ALL ‘God’s’ children”, the Truth is that every natural born person is a potential child of YHVH, but they must have a supernatural rebirth in order to qualify to be a child of Creator YHVH! Does that make sense?
Thanks again for the updated comments.
Baruch B’Shem Yeshua,
Jennifer
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Hi Jennifer, just a few thoughts as I read through what you wrote. Adam and Eve were physical beings that were Echad with YHWH in the Garden. Yes they were spiritual but also physical. When they disobeyed, they allowed a different voice, different words to come into their hearts and acted on and broke YHWHs commandment to them. This was darkness entering them. Darkness and Light do not mix, they broke the state of being Echad with YHWH and therefore had to be removed from the Garden. This state of being in a broken perfect connection with YHWH, the darkness, began the decay of the physical body bringing death. Messiah demonstrated to us a life in perfect obedience and was able to perform the supernatural even before his death/resurrection. I believe Adam and Eve would have had this same ability in their flesh bodies had they not sinned. Messiahs resurrection was back into a physical body that his disciples could touch and feel. And his transfiguration and later ascension show us the future potential we have as children if, and that is if, we stay on the narrow path to endure to the end. Messiah said he gave us the opportunity to become Children of the Most High if we accept him and follow (Shema) (John 1:2). To me receiving him is being grafted in and if so, then the set-apart Ruach must flow through you and bear fruit (as defined in Tanakh – no Paul writings at the time Messiah taught about the branches). So receiving him is being set back into a relationship again with him and the Father and given the breath of Life to bring a re-birth so we can learn, walk and obey and become, over time his children. In the Hebrew mindset, like James, your walking things out demonstrates you have received and heard and are doing. …. As for Jeremiah 31, in verse 34 I do not believe this has been fulfilled. it says “…And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them…” (edited KJV). In this world at this moment in time, there is still the need to witness to people because they all do not know him at all. The section of Hebrews you quote can be misleading because it does not include the full meaning of Jer 31:34. Even Hebrews 8:10 has not been fufilled. Many even who think they are awake and doing this still walk in rebellion in their hearts to traditions of men. I have found it very useful in my walk to always seek 2-3+ witnesses for a matter in scripture before deciding on any doctrine or establishment of a matter. I’ve also found that comparing the KJV, LXX and Targums very fruitful. Now on to studying of Hebrew, once again more insights. May YHWH baruch you on your walk and journey into all truth. I’ve found their are layers to be revealed as you walk, if you keep walking in obedience. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and I hope you will kindly consider mine.
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Yes, of course, I will surely consider your thoughts. I am an imperfect and unworthy, but WILLING servant of the Most High! Baruch B’Shem Yeshua, Jennifer
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Ok,, 4winds, I read your reply. I guess I did not know who I was responding to at first. Anyway, after I read your comment/s, it occurred to me that I don’t think I agree with your assessment. Not that I have perfect knowledge, because I do NOT. However, NO male was allowed to participate in Messiah Yeshua’s VIRGIN birth, not even righteous Joseph. That is NOT the way Creator YHVH reproduces. That is the difference between natural birth and supernatural birth. And we don’t NEED sex. We, as humans, need air, water, food, sleep, clothing, and warmth in cold climates, but we won’t die if we don’t have sex. Some humans THINK that they will die if they don’t have sex. Messiah Yeshua was single and celibate. We are to be conformed to His image, His Spiritual image. And the climate in the Garden, on the Pre-Fall earth was temperate, in fact, the whole earth was one continent, Pangaea.. And YHVH divided the nations by language after Babylon. Why would a good God tell people to re-produce and them kill them all, except for 8 people, Noah and his family? Because they were sinfully wicked and Messiah wasn’t here yet, to allow them to be born again. Born once, die twice.Born twice, die once! He told them to “be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth”. What does that mean? Have we interpreted Scripture through our own personal lens? Context is everything. So, tell me please, exactly what that meant? I once thought that those who said that there are too many people on the earth, were nuts, but now, I don’t think that. Too many humans are fornicating and procreating! And most men, do NOT want to be husbands and dads. And they don’t want to be single and celibate, either! Messiah Yeshua died to save/deliver us FROM the world, the FLESH, the DEVIL and false ‘religion’, and set us free TO love, honor, obey, worship and serve the Creator of the Universe, YHVH, in Spirit and in Truth! HalleluYAH!!! Sboo much more to say, but I don’t want to take any more of your time. Scripture tells us that “flesh & blood cannot enter the kingdom”, and Yeshua would NOT let anyone touch Him, until He was GLORIFIED. I’m thinking that as glorified living souls, we can materialize or manifest as human beings, as some did in the Tanakh. We will be able to travel from planet to planet, and NOT have the expense and danger of space travel! Wes!will be able to communicate heart to heart and mind to mind. We think that we are so far advanced in this world. But it is all for MAN’s GLORY, NOT YHVH’s! YHVH is NOT glorified by mankind’s inventions.
Baruch B’Shem Yeshua,
Jennifer
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Simple and great points. I’ve tried all kinds of ways to say this to people and they just are not listening. Maybe your simple, straightforward words will “finally” sink into soil. 🙂
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Shalom and welcome. Thanks for the links in your other comment.
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