Wow!! Great post!! SO agree. Drives me a little crazy when peeps get hung up on the minutia instead of learning the basics and letting others grow at their own pace.
Good message that needs a broad audience!
via Will the REAL Calendar Please Stand Up?.
The comments below may be of interest to the reader.
natsab 
No it does NOT need a broad audience! This person who wrote this does not have ANY knowledge of how the calendar is calculated. If what this person says is true, then we should all be in UNITY with the pagans celebrating Easter and Christmas. I posted a comment on this
persons blog also and it was NOT moderated AT ALL! Here’s what it said:
Dear Friend,
I read your blog last night. I feel compelled to respond although I do not usually respond to such things. This article is disturbing to me though, not just the things said but the reposes given by so many that have read your blog.
First of all, you made the claim that Judah was given authority over the Feasts, so we should follow their lead in observing the Feasts. So, the Southern Kingdom should follow the Northern Kingdom in this matter?
Let me point out another scripture though, 1 Chron 12:31 says, the men of Issachar understood the times. It maybe quite possible that the “Big Bother Judah,” as you put it, was dependent on “Little Brother” Issachar to keep the calendar.
Also, the Hillel calendar that is followed by the Jews today was instituted 300 years AFTER Yeshua. This is important to understand because it is a FIXED calculated calendar and NOT an observation calendar that was given to us in Gen 1. We CANNOT claim that the current calculated calendar is the same calendar that was followed in the day of Yeshua as you have presumed.
You seem to claim that the Jews have been following the same calendar for thousands of years. This only shows your complete ignorance on the matter. You should not presume to be authoritative enough in this matter to chastise others that are holding to their convictions on the calendar!
You also used Proverbs 6:19 to describe “the most wicked thing a man can do.” You claim this verse to be saying that causing dissension and discord among the brethren is a sin. You need to take a closer look. The word “soweth” (Strong’s #7971) used in this verse means:
Send away
Put out
Cast off
Depart
This verse is NOT using “soweth” in the context of inserting or putting in. So, what it is saying is , those that send away contention are the ones that are sinning. Those who prevent YHVH’s people from contending for and hashing out truth are the ones who are committing a horrible sin.
The irony of this blog post is that you are committing the VERY sin that THIS verse speaks of. You should study the scriptures a little more carefully before trying to use them to say what they ARE NOT saying.
Our Heavenly Father loves those who will seek out and defend TRUTH! You should know this if you are of a Hebrew Roots persuasion. You yourself have likely caused dissension and discord in your own community and family over your stance on Torah. Is it not hypocritical then to claim that others should not stand firmly on the Truth that has been revealed to them?
If Torah observant individuals were to follow the advise that you give in this blog, then we should ALL go back to worshipping on Sunday and celebrating Easter and Christmas! In not observing these very OLD traditions, we are causing dissension and discord.
Luke 12:51-53 Yeshua said he came to cause “division.” He did NOT come to make everyone get along with one another but to DECLARE the TRUTH!!!
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Now you can think we need to be in unity with everyone but that is just not the case!
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Thank you for your comments, Mr. ‘discerningman.’
I also very much appreciate the loving tone and gentle rebuke of a brother… 😉
Now, I will not have time to re-read the article until later tonight, so at least until then, I will stand by my original comments.
I will state clearly and for the record: I don’t think the Jews will be off on their calendar when Messiah reveals Himself to them… Even if they happen to be right by your calculations, they will see Him on the appointed day and it will coincide with their calendar.
I do not remember if it is mentioned in this article, but the scepter is with Judah until Shiloh comes…. He is King of the Jews, but has not yet taken up His rightful place in Jerusalem.
Now, as to the Hebrew roots… WE have a lot to learn. There are areas where I am qualified to be a gentle brother to Judah. The calendar is not one of them…
Shalom in Messiah,
Pete
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Dear Pete,
If you have scriptural insight as to how the Jews will be right as to their calendar observance, then please share your thought. We are always looking to grow in our knowledge of scripture.
Let me ask you a question? How did we all get to the place we are at in our hebrew roots perspective? Most all of us have come to this place by being willing to ponder whether the standard religious paradigms we have been taught all our lives really do mach up with scripture. We have been willing to lay aside the things we once believed because they did not match up with truth of scripture. There was defiantly a time when we did not think that the calendar was something that needed to be scrutinized. Till one day when a friend shared his conviction of calendar calculation. This got us to thinking. We have scrutinized and evaluated so many other things in life, but not the calendar? So we asked ourselves is it important enough to re-evaluate? God then gently reminded us that the fourth day of creation was all about calculating time and the VERY thing that has sent us on our current path. It was the issue of Sabbath. Yes, time and how we calculate it is very important to our Father.
Also, an issue that concerns me is that many new comers to the Hebrew persecutive very quickly gravitate to everything Jewish. This is not entirely wrong, but we should not be too eager to do away with one broken system so we can replace it with one that my be a less broken. We can not presume just because the Jewish people do something in a particular way that they are right. This should be very evident in they have not yet received Yeshua as Messiah. We must evaluate all things according to scripture even established Jewish traditions. If you were to ask an Orthodox Hebrew Scholar about the calendar, they would admit that the Hillel calendar is not biblical. It is just the established calendar that everyone follows.
This subject of the calendar plays out in the Hebrew roots community in much the same way that the Hebrew roots community clashes with mainstream Protestants. If any Protestant were to truly spend a good length of time studying the scriptures and church history with an open mind, there is no way they could come to any other conclusion than to agree with some form of Hebrew perspective. People that make a big deal about following the Jewish calendar because Jews do are just like people that ridicule the Hebrew roots movement. Neither have studied it out for themselves.
We were at a meeting with some folks last year that have spent a good part of their lives in Israel ministering to the Jewish people. They have a profound respect for His people and I commend them for that. One man made a statement that really stuck with me and this was even before we had considered studying the calendar. He said that he “gets real irritated with those people who think they have discovered the real calendar. They should go to Israel and tell the people that have a generational heritage of following Torah for thousands of years and tell them they have been calculating the the calendar all wrong. That a few weeks ago they figured it all out and the Jews should throw their heritage away and follow this new calendar that they just made.” This sounded like a very compelling argument, but I even not knowing about the calendar still had a problem with this perspective. Consider this, the Catholic church is older than the Hillel calendar. The Catholic church is almost two thousand years old some that old has to be right.
If you are truly interested in the calendar, then I would suggest that you watch 119’s presentation on time. ————-And look it up and study it in scripture for yourself to see if they have it accurate to scripture.
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I understand and love 119 Ministries’ teachings. I agree with them on the calendar, but recognize two things: There is not an established body that sights and declares the monthly new moons from Jerusalem and, more importantly, there is not an authoritative body taking care to raise and share the results of the barley. Yes, there are a few individual efforts, but none that I recognize as authoritative in the matter…. yet.
As to the Jews not having everything ‘right,’ I agree. They don’t. But neither do we. Period.
It is more important that we learn to walk in peace with Judah as it gives us an open door to share Yeshua. Trying to be ‘Johnny come lately’ and ‘school’ them on the calendar is a bit pompous and detractive to the more important mission, namely, being the Light of Messiah.
Frankly, I don’t think the calendar will be straightened out until Yeshua is seated on the throne! In the meantime, it is a sideshow that creates division. I choose unity.
As to Judah being on the right calendar when Messiah comes… It may well be a Divine ‘accident,’ but I know one thing! Scripture teaches over and over, they will know and see and turn and be healed! Seems ironic that we have four blood moons coming up on the Hillel feast dates… Divine accident? Hmmm…
In the meantime, I want to walk in love, humility and share the gospel of Torah to Ephraim where I have much more credibility and learn from Brother Judah. The calendar will take care of itself as brother Judah comes to Messiah.
Shalom.
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“An established and authoritative body,” what in the world is that supposed to mean? By the way, yes there are authoritative groups over there! There are many. The Protestant Church has how many thousands of establish and authoritative and unified bodies? Which one of those should we follow?
If you knew anything about the calendar, you would also know all the calendars line up on the same days for the next two years. You may say well, ‘that’s good why worry about it?’ The issue isn’t who has it right but who is seeking truth. If you are willing to follow something that is not established on truth for the sake of unity, you are on very shaky ground.
It sounds to me that your god is unity with the authoritative body and not Yahweh.
Yeshua told us to love Yahweh FIRST with all our heart. Then we love people after we love Him. We are not supposed to love the unified body first and then love Yahweh only if it fits in to our ability to love the unified body.
People with this kind of perspective will end up creating a ‘Hebrew roots’ christian denomination that will just be added to all the other dysfunctional denominations in Christianity today.
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I think the ‘established and authoritative body’ would be the priesthood…. (Sanhedrin?)
And no, my ‘god’ is not unity. You may need to spend a little time reading this blog so you know more about me and what I teach/profess before leveling those accusations. In the meantime, you might keep your verbal hand-grenades to yourself. They hardly model the wisdom or maturity expected of one who would teach.
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The Sanhedrin is our authority? You would need to explain that one. As far as “verbal hand-grendes” that is not my intent. My intent is to get you to honestly defend your position. You have not done that yet. You have only responded with some form of emotional ploy. If I am in the wrong, then put me in my place with the Word. Give an answer for what you believe. Give me the facts according to scripture. I am still waiting for the answers to the questions I asked. No I will not respond to you according to the package that you present to the world. I will respond to you according the tone of the conversation that we have had.
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Okay.
Let’s start with my comment on the re-blog. I said,
You must have missed the bold part.
Second, as I understand it, the ultimate call for the beginning of each month and the aviv barley was done by those the Father put into the position of authority. Namely, the elders/priests.
I do personally know someone who announces a sighted moon from Israel, but not the Temple mount. Close to right. They do not plant a field of barley or judge/toast the natural barley in the valley there, so we still don’t have that. And, I have heard no, ‘Thus sayeth YHVH’ on who is His voice in the matter.
Until then, I CHOOSE to walk in unity with Brother Judah.
You mentioned Issachar. Uhm… until Messiah redesignates tribes, good luck with figuring out who that really is… There are dozens of divisions on the calendar and I will not take sides in that fight. Everybody thinks they can ‘prove’ their position. I have thoughts and preferred perspectives, but it is not a major issue that the Father would have me pursuing.
You trying to force me or anyone else to your perspective is detrimental to the calling many others have… Revealing Messiah and walking in peace.
As for my ‘position’ that you want me to defend, I have. So, let me state it again since you haven’t grasped it yet: I will walk in unity and let Messiah sort out the calendar. Until then, I will take the Torah (particularly the major elements of Feasts, Diet and Shabbat) to Ephraim and share Messiah with Judah. At present, the minute differences in the calendar is nothing more than a divisive sideshow.
There, that is my position and it is defensible.
In order to help you find this article (and the rest of my blog) I am going to sticky it to my front page. I hope it gets a little more press.
Shalom!
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Very good! I very much appreciate your response.
First of all let me clarify, I have NOT even given a calendar for you or anyone to follow. The reality is there is no one on the planet that can truly define the calendar. If they think they can, they have deceived themselves. This is an issue of discovery that has to be hashed out and researched for us to be able to come to a definitive conclusion. That is the true reality of the calendar. Like so many other things, the more we study the more we are aware of what we do not know. So yes, I do follow a calendar but would defiantly be wrong in trying to force others to follow my calendar.
Let me then be VERY CLEAR on the issue I brought up at first. The tone of the original article was that ( our “big brother Judah” is our authority and we should comply to their established systems). You agreed with this and said that this truth needed to be spread.
Once again here is the problem with perspective. The perspective you affirmed in your last post when I asked you to define authority. Your response was priests or Sanhedrin. I’m sorry that is the wrong response. The right response is 1 Cor 11:3 the head of every man is Yeshua. Your response was that man is our authority. Also Mathew 23 : 9-10 call no man father.
You should review Jim Staley’s sermon on spiritual audit. We should all evaluate what we believe and the systems we follow. According to your opinion, we should follow what other people do for the sake of submitting to an authority we should not be submitting to.
This premise of submission to authority and maintaining unity is the very foundation of spiritual and religious bondage. The very foundation that the Pharisees built to enslave God’s people. The same foundation that the Catholic church built to enslave most of the world.
This is also a return to an old covenant belief system. Again review Jim Stayley’s opinion on the matter. According to his words the difference between the old covenant and new covenant is that under the old covenant we have a mediator between us and God. The new covenant is different and distinct in that we no longer need a earthly mediator between us and God. We have final and ultimate High Priest, Yeshua. WE ALL have direct access to the Father and the Holly spirit.
Under you premise of submission and unity, we should not seek the spirit and truth for ourselves. We should submit to the established authority. Did Yeshua submit to the religious authorities or did he challenge their theology and traditions? If He is our example should we not do the same? Luke 12:51. He did not come to bring peace but division. Truth has to supersede unity with others. You likely have done this in your life already. Being Torah observant will cause us conflict with most of the rest of the world. We can not compromise righteousness and ignore Sabbath and dietary laws because it offends others. That would be sin.
You claim that we should cut off our disunion of truth at the calendar. It is not important enough to argue over. Under what authority do you claim that? How are you to decide that for other people? Also let me ask you this. If this is not an important subject, why did Yahweh dedicate one whole day and the center day ( which means it is the heart of the whole creation week ) to the concept of telling time? Also, if that is not enough He put the expanse of billions of galaxies and an uncountable amount of stars in the universe for the reason of telling time. Calculating the calendar is not important?
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Rav Shaul submitted to a body of elders… Acts 15 and again in Acts 21. So, there are some ruling bodies of men that we can rightly be in submission to. That is not a return to old covenant, it is simply understanding that there are some God puts in charge of certain things. (Romans 13?)
In one breath you agree that
but in the next you think we need to be hashing it out.
Frankly, that is not my calling right now. Period!
You say,
I think you misread the article… The tone is that in this matter we should defer to Judah. And, drumroll… I concur.
Now, I appreciate your zeal for the subject, but I am not going there. Maybe you can start your own blog… you clearly do not lack for words. 🙂
Shalom!
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I agree that we all have to submit to the authorities which God has put in place. That can go with out saying. Who has been put on earth to arbitrate truth and define for us what to believe? Even Paul conflicted with the governing body of church leadership in Jerusalem. He even rebuked Peter. At one point he argued with Barnabas to the point they parted ways.
My question still remains why should we defer to the Jews on this mater? They do not have any greater insight on the calendar that the rest of us. So yes, we should continue to search and hash out the truth. Truth will set us free and all truth is available to those that will seek it. If we do know some point of truth, it is only because we have a wrong perspective or frame of reference. So yes, we will keep pressing in any allowing the spirit to teach us were we are wrong in our perspective.
If you are choosing follow the Jewish calendar then great, I pray you are blessed in that. My problem is that you are claiming that others should follow the Jewish calendar also.
I commend you for not searching out the calendar that is prudent if you have not been commissioned to do so. That being said it would then be wrong of you to tell others which calendar to follow if you are not call to search out that truth. It is also wrong to condemn others (which was the point of the person’s article) for searching out truth. If this is not your realm, then stay out and don’t presume you can tell other what they should do.
I have appreciated the discussion may you be blessing in your walk with Messiah.
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Thank you. Shalom.
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Geez…and the guy wonders why I didn’t moderate his comment on my own blog, lol. It’s called discernment.
Besides writing when Abba lays something on my heart, I am a wife and mother of three children whom I homeschool, and have other weightier matters to take care of in life rather than pursue arguments that I know aren’t going to go anywhere due to a person’s tone of voice. Now, I have friends who sit on fb all day and write out their convictions and revelations and who post endless scripture on their pages, conversing or arguing with anyone who will comment, which I’ll admit, in my zeal at the beginning, when I lacked understanding and spake as a child, I did my share of the same…but the Ruach gently continued to guide me into adulthood, reminding me that He knew how to do His job very well in His timing, that I wasn’t the Savior, and that I wasn’t to take the kingdom by violence. He also reminded me that I had a wonderful husband and three beautiful children whom depended on me, whom He gave me to love and cherish, bringing a generation up in His ways…which didn’t consist of teaching them to sit on the computer or hold my phone in my hand typing all day, ministering to people whom did not depend on me, telling my own family desiring my attention and affection, ‘just a minute.’ Learning when to minister and how to choose our battles wisely is part of growing up and taking responsibility, it is part of putting the old man away…you know, the old man whom always thinks he is right and likes to revel in the day time to the dismay of his hearers. For example, my nephesh would really like to show this discerning guy that it is unwise to make foolish accusations of someone else’s ignorance when he is only using one reference source to understand the meaning of a word, and not all of the other times that word is used, and that he should probably look up the meaning to the word translated as times in the passage about Issachar, as well as that context, and so on… but if I continued, writing out all of my findings and understandings, resources and showing off my scholarly ability to rightly divide the word of truth…then I would be the one acting like a brute beast, wasting precious time rather than allowing the Ruach to lovingly guide us into all truth. We’re called not only to rightly divide the word of truth, but also to walk by the spirit…meaning, not by the nephesh.
The problem is that it is human nature to either follow someone, or to be rogue and not submit to anyone–which shows their lack of ability to submit to the Father. We did not all come to this understanding because of questioning everyone and everything that we believe…many had our eyes opened because we were seeking Him, a closer walk with Him, and He lovingly opened our eyes- not because WE discovered the truth on our own, but because He removed the scales- not us. So many think it is their own deeds that have discovered these things, which shows in their lack of respect to others and illustrates a root of bitterness and underlying issues of distrust. Sadly, people are still puffing themselves up and attempting to seat themselves above the assembly, making themselves like unto a god because they think they know better than others, or feel they need to share their puffed upness with others ‘out of concern’ of course. Nothing is new under the sun. We have been in fellowship with people who sounded just like this guy, and they drain so much joy from walking in freedom. I wrote what I wrote from experience, as well as having already gone down the road of frivolous and time consuming research, and also because of a prompting by the Spirit- not due to a lack of knowledge or overkill of ignorance, nor for a want to be rude or puffed up, accusatory or demeaning…it’s up to the reader to choose how one applies, or doesn’t apply, whatever information one receives.
But by the way, check it out… I did actually see an article yesterday about a Jewish committee at Sanhedrin.org focusing on issues of the calendar…wow, who would’ve thought that our Father is in control and could guide them to make changes if necessary when HIS timing is right? However, you know what I predict? If the calendar is changed, these same people who are yelling at us through comments and attempting to belittle people for their ignorance, they will be the same ones rearing up their ugliness again to revel in their glory, boasting in their victory of being right. Ah, we could all learn to trust in Him, His ways, His timing, His knowledge and His capability just a bit more, while decreasing in our own prideful ways, don’t ya think? His yoke is easy and His burden is light, let joy and peace be within us as we proclaim the good news and allow Messiah to have the increase! -kg
“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. Love suffers long [and] is KIND; love DOES NOT ENVY; love DOES NOT PARADE ITSELF, is NOT PUFFED UP; DOES NOT BEHAVE RUDELY, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; BEARS all things, BELIEVES all things, HOPES all things, ENDURES all things. Love NEVER fails. But whether [there are] prophecies, they will fail; whether [there are] tongues, they will cease; whether [there is] knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide FAITH, HOPE, LOVE, these three; but the GREATEST of these [is] LOVE.”
1 Corinthians 13
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Thank you so much for stopping by. I stand by your original article and agree, let the Father do His work in His timing in each heart… We can be messengers, but we each have to know when to back off…
It is encouraging that there is a desire on the part of the Sanhedrin to look at the calendar. As most probably know, the reason they went to a calculated system was because they were no longer in or allowed to be in Jerusalem. Now that they are back, I do pray they take a hard look and establish a body that can make the official annual and monthly declaration, even if we can calculate it with great precision.
Also, funny you should post I Cor. 13… I can SO close to quoting the whole thing myself… Just confirms what the Ruach was telling me. Sorry I did not answer, thought that was my next reply.
Keep writing and thank you for your ministry/blog!
Shabbat Shalom!
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Mr. Discerning man,
I have removed your most recent comment. This not your forum and it will not be turned into your bully pulpit. I am kindly asking that you drop the topic. You may stay and read other posts… even participate if you can find a more loving tone. If not, then I would ask that you move on.
Thank you for understanding.
Shalom!
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Thats to bad.
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I have been following this discussion and i find the topic very interesting. I have enjoyed reading the posts because i think we need to discover what Ya has set forth in His Word for us to obey. However, i think that saying things that allude to the fact that His calendar and appointed times are an issue that is not weighty enough to try and discern is folly. If we do not know when those times are how will we be wise virgins ready for the Messiah when He comes? If Ya set His calendar in the sky at creation do you not think it is important enough to consider as a weighty matter? So, do we just follow blindly and never really consider these things? I was glad to read the original blog, Will the REAL calendar please stand up, however i did find it somewhat arrogant. Arrogant in the fact that she seemed to belittle others with a different view point, which was a turn off. I found her information eye opening, but when i read things like discerning guy’s posts it gives me pause for thought, it does NOT divide my mind in the least, only encourages me to continue to pursue Ya with all of my might. I am not interested in comments such as accusing someone of acting like a “brute beast” it only shows me that there are still others out there who would squash the Ruach”s movement in the hearts of others that are pursuing Him wholeheartedly. I find when someone challenges you it does give you extra zeal to defend your beliefs, but it seems to me that you did not adequately defend yourself Mr. Rambo, you resorted to not talking about it because it might cause division, i find that it should do the exact opposite. It should charge someone to read SCRIPTURE and find the loving Father in it and be able to hash things out with the brethren without fear of persecution from them because they get their feelings hurt, rebukes are necessary and are the very pruning one needs, but when it comes to accusing people of acting like a brute beast, as setapartperspective has done i think someone needs to mature in an area of their lives. I am a bit leery of those who presume they are all grown up and have no desire to discuss things; to reason things out is how we learn. If we do not do this then we are only hearing a limited view of the Living Word, and that is a shame. The fact that the conversation is cut off in favor of one that has been accusing people of acting like a beast is absurd, i don’t know what discerning guy’s response was, but it could’t have been any worse than her’s. I for one want to get back to the original topic here.Does anyone know where to go to see about the calculations? Where did you get the information on the Jews reviewing the calendar?
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Jane,
Thank you for stopping by. I do appreciate your comments.
The calendar is very important, however, it is unfortunately a major source of division. In most discussions that I have been privy to, it takes on a life of its own that is less than helpful to the larger needs of the Body. Do we need to explore? Yes. Will we have all the answers before Yeshua’s return? Not likely, unless an official body, as the priests were, stands to correctly sight the moon and judge the aviv barley.
Setapart’s comments on the Sanhedrin are indeed encouraging and interesting… I hope to hear more in the future.
In the meantime, I think the more important mission that we are called to is to share Yeshua with our brother Judah and share Torah with Ephraim. That is my primary objective. As a relative neophyte in Torah observance (Feasts x 3 years and full Torah x 19 months or so) I hardly think it my place to try to teach Judah something they have a far better grip on than I. Have I researched it on my own? Yes. Do I have some opinions? Yes!
But see, our Father has seen fit to place me in leadership in a Messianic fellowship. There are several issues that quickly divide. We have learned and continue to learn that where it is a non-essential, we can learn to walk in unity and allow the Ruach to lead and mould us. Let people grow at their own pace. In matters such as the calendar, where no one has a ‘thus sayeth YHVH,’ the better part of wisdom is to be at peace and learn. In our particular case, we have several families that were unwilling to move from the Hillel due to direct connections into the Jewish community. Wisdom says, ‘Walk in peace and unity and allow the Ruach to solve this one.’
For the sake of my brother Judah and being a light for my King Yeshua, I choose NOT to allow this to be an issue at this time. It is not that I am not interested. It is not that I don’t have an opinion. It IS that for the sake of my brothers, Judah and Ephraim, I will hold up Messiah and hold up the ‘weightier matters’ of Shabbat, Feasts and Diet.’ The Ruach will take care of the calendar issue… Mark my words. In the meantime, I choose to walk with Judah on this matter and I refuse to make it a bigger issue than it needs be at this time.
I do like the 119 teaching on the calendar. ( http://119ministries.com/time-our-creators-calendar-the-foundation-part-1 ) It has been a while since I’ve seen it, but if I recall, even they admit the need for an ‘official’ annual determination of the barley.
Dear sister, please understand, as I stated earlier in this thread of comments, my understanding of the tone of the original article is that ‘in this matter, for unity’s sake, we should defer to Judah.’ I am not saying we defer to Judah in all things… Never said, or even implied. We would be wise to walk in peace in certain areas so that we might have opportunity in other areas. That is all I am saying.
I appreciate your interest in the calendar. I pray you have a blessed Sabbath!
Shabbat Shalom!
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Shabot Shalom All!
I see your point, Mr Rambo. That is a hard place to be. If you have members of your group that
have made a stand on their position, that would defiantly put you in an awkward place if you were to follow a different calendar. I do know people who fellowship with friends who do not observe the same dates. It causes a little awkwardness, but they seem to have worked it out.
I can see that it is important to not needlessly argue over things with no willingness to consider the welfare of community; this is true. I pray Abba gives you the discernment to do that well.
I have talked to many of Torah observant believers out there though that do not have ties to Jewish friends. Nor do they have a predisposition to any one calendar over another. They are just curious as to why some have a conviction for following one calendar over another. To them, what would we say, we all do have to choose one? Would setapartperspective say to them, ‘it is immoral for them to follow any calendar other than the Jewish calendar?’ For yourself, Mr Rambo, if you met new believers that had already been observing a different calendar and they wanted to joint your group how would you deal with that? If they would not covert to your days what would you do? Would you see them as living in sin for holding to their conviction rather than submitting to the community? Not saying you would just curious of your opinion.
One last final thought. When is it appropriate to cause others to be uncomfortable for the sake of truth? Yeshua made a lot of people very mad. The apostle of John is full of that. I hadn’t noticed that until recently. Much of Yeshua’s interaction with people is not very conducive to building community. Actually, much of His ministry seems to to be more focused on ministering to individuals rather than to building a community or even a following. There are even times that He chased followers away.
The early scientists of the middle ages are a good example of conflict. They caused a lot of conflict and made a lot of people made. They even had friends that rebuked them severely for causing such a fuss over such a ‘useless issue’ as the world being round. They were told these things are not important and you are disagreeing with church authority. How about Martin Luther? He had friends and family begging him to recant and give up his foolish cause. If we were a good Christian of that day and all the mess he was causing, what would we have thought of him? Most of us would have likely claimed that he was vey wrong.
Throughout history, there have always been rebellious rogues who have gone against the grain for things which seemed to be unimportant to others. This doesn’t mean every rebellious rogue is in the right. We all have known someone who has caused a mess for no good reason other than to pursue their own agenda. The question is when is it right? When is it wrong? Obviously, we can not say we should cut off the discovery of truth as soon as we make others uncomfortable. Yeshua made people uncomfortable quite often. Should we cut it off when people threaten to leave our group? Yeshua didn’t seem to agree with that. Or should the discovery of truth never be hindered?
No one knew what was on the other side of the Protestant Reformation when it began. It just looked really ugly. What is on the other side of the calendar debate? I have a feeling it is far more than we can imagine.
I pray your Sabbath has been restful.
Shalom!
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Thank you for the more understanding tone.
I’ll try to answer a few of your questions.
As our fellowship has grown, particularly over the last year, we found the need to take a mediatorial stand on a number of issues that had the potential to be divisive. Our goal was a unity that honored the Father while allowing all to grow or have room to feel comfortable as they sought Truth.
One of the positions was the calendar. We had been on a system where we were about a day, or at most two days off of Hillel. Ultimately, I felt impressed that unity and celebrating the feasts as a Body were more important than different groups vying for the merits of their understanding of the calendar. We agreed to walk in peace until the Ruach led us to a unity of understanding. The agreed place, for unity with Judah, was the Hillel. Interestingly, today someone mentioned the Sanhedrin re-looking at the subject and the whole room was excited. We WANT to be right, but want to do so at the bidding of the Ruach and in unity with Judah.
Another common divisive matter, for example, is the use of the Name. We chose TO use it, with care, and allow those who disagree to choose not to, but cannot press the issue if they disagree…. The policy of our fellowship is that the Name is sacred, but we have the freedom to use/call upon the name of our God. (That is another example of peace/unity, though in this case we go against Judaic tradition because we believe that is where the Ruach would have us…. though I am sensitive to those who feel otherwise when in personal conversation…)
Those two cases may help answer a couple of your questions. We do not ‘disfellowship’ over some matters, but we may take a particular stand as a fellowship and then walk in unity and love with those who may not agree.
Something we all need to remember is that none of us has ALL the answers and we are all growing at a different pace. One of the great unfortunate things in the Torah observant community is the number of people who, for lack of a better word, are ‘Torah Terrorists.’ They insist on everyone believing exactly as they do. Disagreement equals heresy or disfellowship. We should be learning while allowing others room to grow. We also need the maturity to discern the larger picture and allowing the Ruach to solve some issues in his timing.
As far as being willing to make sacrifices or give things up to pursue Torah… I know all about that as does most anyone who comes to this walk. The truth is costly. Yeshua said so… For me, it cost me a job I had had for ten years… then I was ‘drummed’ out of the denomination I was in. It has also caused me many strained family ties with a bunch of solid believers in Jesus. See: https://natsab.com/2013/11/22/who-is-pete-rambo-lol/ I’m not afraid of sacrifice or division, but the entire Hebraic community needs to learn to discern what is worth fighting for and when loving our brother is the better course of action.
Trust me, as more come to Yeshua and Torah observance, the calendar will be solved by the Ruach. Right now we need to focus on getting the basics right and learning to love our brother. Instead of being divided into ten thousand tiny factions, we must grow in maturity to become the bright light the Father is calling us to be.
A note on Yeshua… He WAS a community builder in the sense that He was about building the House of His Father. He got most exasperated with the LEADERS who knowingly violated Torah for their own traditions and safeguarding their own positions against the move of the Father. He was very patient with those whose hearts were soft toward Him and/or the Father. Today, we have so much to ‘fix’ or get back to that doing everything at once and according to 100 different interpretations can be exasperating, particular for new lambs. What do they see? A house divided and constantly bickering about seemingly petty things… (the calendar) or do they come in and see love, unity and a passion to learn the feasts, study Torah, keep Shabbat and learn the basics of clean/unclean, while praying for and reaching out to Judah?
[Now, I didn’t say the calendar was petty. I said ‘SEEMINGLY’ petty…]
Do we have those discussions? Sure, from time to time, but that is not a central or front window discussion. That is for the meal after Shabbat while fellowshipping and batting some of the heavier things around… Or maybe a dedicated discussion one evening.
Like our fellowship, this blog is designed as an outreach… My passion is apologetics. Particularly defending the Torah it relevance to believers in Yeshua. I am continually amazed at the number of Torah observant believers who can not fully articulate or defend their reasons, but they want to dive into the trickier waters of calendar observance. What is more important? Giving a loving , well reasoned defense for the Shabbat or being able to list the five or seven or nine steps to determining the new year? Both are important, but one is clearly more important than the other.
To use your Reformation illustration: Foxe’s Book of Martyrs recounts MANY who died because they understood the importance of ‘justification by faith.’ Today, what will the Torah observant believer die for? Whatever that is, that is what we need to be bringing in love… JMO.
For more about our fellowship and to hear a message or two… http://davarchaim.org/ (The site is still a work in progress.)
Shavuah Tov!
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I thank you Mr. Rambo for this conversation! I have learn some to view this topic from a different perspective. I am not call to hold a Shepard position over a local congregation. To come together as a local body is an issue I will need to be mindful of in the future. I will agree that the members of a local congregation do need to be on the same page in this mater. It just wouldn’t work for half of your congregation to be honoring different day.
I do have some respect for you. It does look like you are doing a good job of what you have been called to do.
If you can try to look at this topic from my perspective. I do have a group whom I fellowship with but obviously we do not share the same view of the calendar. I have spent much time studying this topic and I also have many friends that have been studying this topic for much of their lives. I have also had the incredible privilege to connect with and spend time with a large number of Torah observant believers from all over the country. One of the most profound surprising things I learned about these people is how diverse they are. I can get together with them and we have so much in common and yet we are so different. Even more surprising though is we all get along. We have such different opinions about so many things even the calendar, but we all still have a love for Yahweh and Torah. This is the bond which we can share.
Your view of the calendar issue is unrealistically naive. From an intellectual perspective it seem to make since that everyone being on the same page ( which is what your congregation needs ) is what the large corporate body needs also. That is fair from reality. The fledgling movement of God is far to young and diverse to be able to accomplish that. The individuals and groups that make up the collective body of Messiah are people who have spent time finding Yahweh and His truth for themselves. They have developed their own perspective and conviction with little influence from any larger corporate influence.
As I have spent time with these people, I have found if I am going to fellowship in unity, I will need to be gracious over our differences. This the only way I can come together with them in any form of unity. I will have to put up with the fact that very few of the people that I gather with outside my inner circle will agree with me on the calendar. If I were to conform to another calendar, say yours for instance, I would have unity with you but would be excluding many of my other friends that have a different calendar. How do I come into unity with? Forgive my tone but for you to say that all the rest of the body of Messiah needs to come and agree with you and do as your group is doing is a very arrogant statement to the the rest of the body. I know a lot of people that will have the same reaction to setapartperspective’s article as I did.
Wether you like it or not, the people who have spent much of their lives studying the calendar have not done so out of their own ambitions. They are being obedient to the prompting of the Father. I do not know why the Father has done things the way He has, I would have done things differently because it doesn’t make since to me in my flesh. I can not change the reality of what He has done though. The reality is if your congregation wants to to be in unity with the rest of the body of Messiah, you will have to stop posting articles like ” Will the real calendar stand up please?”. You can’t slap them in the face and expect you have promoted unity.
What you have done is the very thing that keep much of the collective body disconnected from the rest. Most of the people, I know will read an article like that and will right you off. They have enough resistance from the world already. They defiantly do not need someone in their circle of fellowship who is telling them they are in the wrong for not conforming to the your opinion. This is what keeps them from connecting with others in the way they need to.
This is why I challenged this article. I understand you do not like my tone but I WILL get in your face when you cause problems. For your good and the good of the whole body, you do need to understand what you have done by promoting such an article.
So after having this conversation with you, I do think you would be someone I could fellowship with. You do seem to have a good heart. I do like many of the things you have put on your blog. May you be blessed in what the Father has given you to do.
Shalom!
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