YHVH’s Instructions About Kashrut (Kosher)

Another terrific post from Sue and John. I wholeheartedly agree with this post and Scripturally correct position and am relieved that when they are here next weekend we can have cheeseburgers… 😉

The Lamb's Servant

When John and I are asked if we ‘keep kosher,’ our response is, “Yes, we keep the scriptural kosher instructions.”  By this, we mean that we obey the commands concerning food as given in Torah, but we do not follow the rabbinic (Talmudic) traditions that have become so important to orthodox Jews.

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About Pete Rambo

Details in 'About' page @ natsab.wordpress.com Basically, husband of one, father of four. Pastor x 11 years, former business and military background. Micro-farmer. Messianic believer in Yeshua haMashiach!
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27 Responses to YHVH’s Instructions About Kashrut (Kosher)

  1. Jack Jackson says:

    When we are asked about Scriptural kosher, we simply start the conversation with a reply that the word “kosher” is not in Scripture, but that God defines food we can eat as “clean”.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. ברוס says:

    Kosher means “fit” guys, its a jewish term since the Torah was given to the Jews not gentiles.

    Non-Kosher = Non Fit for consumption based off Torah’s instructions and what the Chazals have passed down.

    Kosher eating aren’t for you guys anyway, if you take it on great, but no need to tell other christians they should be doing it unless there Jewish christians.

    If your anti-rabbinic then you may not realize if you keep the festival of Sukkot and build a sukkah then your doing rabbinical interpretation of what constitutes as a Sukkah. Remember the feast of G-d were given to Jews not Non-Jews, if G-d wanted non-jews to have to be the ones to practice and share His feast he would have done so. He didn’t for a reason. It was G-ds choice not ours. Articles like the above explain why. 🙂

    Also what’s left out in that article is Deut 14 since Kashrut is mentioned there as well.

    Also too, Kosher eating is about the spiritual as well as the physical (spiritual being the first component)…. How the animal was killed, what it was fed, was it necessary to kill the animal [Ie:Intent] etc [Its almost humanitarian if you will]….

    Lastly if you guys read hebrew you’ll see that prior to the Torah being written the people lived without a written manuscript, until 40years later… It was a Oral Law in effect in addition to the Torah and it was an aspect that some overlook which tells us that we are to experience the Torah not just view it as a written document. Both Oral and Written were given at Sinai. HaShem in Leviticus 26:46 uses Torah in the plural He says “and the Torahs” “ve Ha Torot” this is in Hebrew obviously all translators miss this.

    Got Hebrew?

    😉

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    • Pete Rambo says:

      Sorry, Bruce.

      Isaiah 66:16-17: kol basar all flesh will be judged for eating the unclean.

      Zechariah 14:16-19. All of the nations will come up to celebrate Sukkot.

      Isaiah 2:1-5 Torah to the nations.

      Abba has one standard of righteousness. One Law. If He had differing g weights and measures for different people, then He would break His own Torah in judging them unequally.

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      • ברוס says:

        I’m confused to why you’re apologizing?

        In any event, where’s the context? You’re not showing context. The prior chapter is a explaining to Israel that happiness will soon come and be permanent, spiritual blessing will abound as well as physical, G-ds firstborn Son Am Israel (Exodus 4:22), will be at last vindicated and we will no longer be mocked and ridiculed by Anti-Semitism and Anti-Rabbinic individuals/groups/societies (Also keep in mind a Jew is a person of cultural descent or a convert into the practice of Judaism i.e.:proselyte as english renders it, [Like what’s found in the book of Ruth]). **** Let me be clear the nations or individual people CAN do Kosher and Feast and desire to live according to the Torah etc….Thats great, Mazel Tov! :-)…. But you guys weren’t given the Torah nor taught the Oral Torah so don’t be so mean spirited about the Rabbi’s of the Talmud and Mishnah …. If you do a passover seder your doing “rabbinic” influenced and standardized practice of Passover when there is no Temple, just one example….. You christians mock us and label us but yet you don’t realize how much “Rabbinics” you do. Its funny at times :-), Its like that episode of Seinfeld …. Anyway let’s start with Isaiah —

        Isaiah 66:16: כי באשׂ ה׳ נשׁפט ובחרבּו את כל בּשׂר

        If you read back to verse 12 G-d through the prophet Isaiah is explaining to us that non-jews most of the nations will rush to the land of Israel to bring wealth and glory (because there eyes have been open), there will be though nations who still think the Jewish people “need to be dealt with” and thus in verse 16 HaShem will enter into fire and judgement on them, G-d will judge His enemies with the fire of Gehinnom. Isaiah is also alluding to Ezekiel 38:21-22 [Gog and Magog].

        Isaiah 66:17 is speaking about these nations who prepare and who feel as though by killing Jews or exterminating the Nation of Israel they’re “purifying” themselves.
        You can translate מתקדשׁים as “prepare” or “designate” i.e: The people would agree on a time to serve a specific idol. Others render המתקדשׁים והמטהרים as “who sanctify” and “purify themselves”, i.e: they think by serving idols they become purified and sanctified.

        This verse is referring to the Persians, who frequently bathed and cleansed themselves. Although they appear to sanctify and cleanse themselves in pools by the gardens, in reality their lifestyle is immoral and impure. Which gives us the next phrase;

        אחר אחת בּתוך — Going one [group] after another another to its midst. i.e.: the midst of the garden where they placed there Idol. After one wave of idol worshippers concluded another arrived,

        אכלי בּשׂר החזיר והשׁקץ והעכבּר — And those who eat the flesh of the swine, the abominable creature, and the mouse. i.e: meaning although they purify themselves, they fill there bodies with impure food.

        יחדו יספו נאם ה׳ — Will all be consumed together – the word of HaShem. i.e: The nations that joined forces for the war of Gog and Magog will be considered like one nation, since there will be no dominant power among them.

        And verse 18 can be viewed from two sides in describing G-ds plan to gather the nations in war against Jerusalem. G-d will orchestrate the sinners described in the previous verse to assemble in war, so that they may ultimately witness His glory when they are defeated (which can explain why now every nation is coming to Israel to do the festivals and they do Shabbat and Rosh Chodesh) they would have left there ideologies of a man-god or illiterate prophet who’s G-ds “man” or little fat statue smiling with crossed legs etc.

        Another view of verse 18 from a the Jewish sinner perspective as described in verse 5. Because they did not serve G-d, He gathered nations against them, thereby compelling them to recognize their own shortcomings. Ultimately these Jews will come to recognize G-ds glory, as he brings justice upon there adversaries.

        Zechariah 14:16-19

        First things first what’s the context of the chapter? We can’t parachute down and start saying things… In this chapter Zechariah now foretells events that will take place during the war of Gog and Magog…. Based off this the Chazal’s speak of 3 separate wars that will be fought (Midrash Tehillim to Psalm 118)… In Short the first 2 wars are discussed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. The final war, when Gog will actually break into Jerusalem, is subject of this chapter.

        For the hebrew I’m going to use http://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2314.htm instead of typing it myself.

        Zechariah 16a וְהָיָה, כָּל-הַנּוֹתָר מִכָּל-הַגּוֹיִם, הַבָּאִים, עַל-יְרוּשָׁלִָם — It shall be that all who are left over from all the nations who had invaded Jerusalem. i.e.: The people who repented who saw the catastrophe that was befalling their camp, will mark the anniversary of miracles they had witnessed during the war by going up to Jerusalem and offering sacrifices on the Succot festival, for it is during the season of Succos that the war of Gog and Magog will have taken place.

        The Talmud gives an interesting outlook I know you don’t value the talmud but if one day you decide to give it a look Tractate Avodah Zarah 3a speaks about this.

        Also the reason we believe the war of Gog and Magog will happen during Succot is because the name Gog גוֹג relates to גג “roof” which is in contrast to the Succah, the weak, unstable covering of foliage. This contrast actually sums up the entire history of mankind, who think that just as they have the ability to build דפנות, strong walls to protect them from earthly contemporaries, so too do they imagine that they have the power to protect themselves from that which comes from above: G-d and His power to direct matters.

        I could continue if you’re curious to hear more but I think its clear enough context….Non Jews are the ones who come after Jews or seeking Jews, first to kill them or slander them or mock them and there culture and history but then they come seeking us because G-d has opened there eyes how we Jews worship One G-d and have suffered in the name of many other gods throughout history from the Nations (non-jews).

        Isaiah 2 is basically regarding the Messianic era, when Judah and Jerusalem will be exalted by the Nations of the world (non-jews).

        You’re right there is one standard and All Nations will adhere to it in accordance with HaShems time. But if you believe jesus is the Jewish Messiah then your not following G-ds Torah standard….. The Jewish Bible clearly shows the Messiah comes once and he isn’t “divine”. Muslims and Christians believe jesus is coming back, but the Jewish people know that to be a lie, but we are constantly mocked and ridiculed and judge by these religions, who use our bible to support there doctrines (christians need the OT as they call it and muslims need the Torah).

        It will be a a great day when the nations (non jews) awake and see, as Jeremiah 16:19 prophecy’s 🙂 one day will happen.

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      • Pete Rambo says:

        It will be a great day, and I believe we all have much yet to learn. I look for the Prince to come teach us rightly.

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    • Jack Jackson says:

      Is the word “kosher” found in written Torah in Hebrew?

      If the “oral Torah” was given prior, which I too believe, when was it given and who was it given to? I believe it was originally given to Adam and Eve, and if so was given to the first 2 humans whom we are “all” subsequently from; therefore, that Torah was for all humans.

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      • ברוס says:

        @John the Torah both written and Oral was given at Sinai to the Jewish people (whether ethnic or converts) that’s the biblical One Law (Not gentiles running around saying they do it right when 90% of them don’t even read the text meaning the entire Jewish bible in Hebrew [not talking cute word lookups] I’m referring to tense and grammatical sentence structures) . Leviticus 26:46 G-d says Torahs in the plural. So there’s the hint and basis for the Oral Torah

        The anti-semitism displayed by one laws is absurd, they “leave” christianity to adopt Torah but hold to a christian mind with regards to Jews. And follow there christian brothers with regards to jewish things and literature.

        G-d has given the Jews his feast not Gentiles and he never revoked that either. But one law/hebrew root christians assert they “follow” it “pure” and that we Jews are “following man traditions”. You have your god jesus to thank for that and Paul the publisher of his works.

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      • ברוס says:

        *@Jack

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  3. Jack Jackson says:

    God gave His feasts to all Israel, not just Jews (Judah), He will gather both the House of Judah and House of Israel according to Jer. 31:31 and “any” who place their faith in YHVH/Messiah will be added to one of the 12 tribes (see Ezk. chapter 47).

    Also, the plural form of Torah is also used earlier in Gen 26:5, because many of us do study the grammar also. My issue is the way you seem to claim YHVH and His ways (they are still His aren’t they?) and make them your’s, seemingly representing all Jews.

    I was raised Christian, thinking that Jews were a different people ethnically. A few years back in 2007 Out of no where, I was shown Sabbath in His word. In Isaiah 56, there are blessing for a gentile (son of a nekar) who will “joined himself to YHVH”. The verse 8 “Adonai YHVH which gathereth the outcasts of Israel, Yet will I gather others to me, besides those that are gathered unto me.” Verse 7 says their burnt offerings and sacrifices will also be accepted.

    Lastly, I was already drawn to Torah while I believed I was a nekar, and then found out my “real” great grandfather was listed as Jewish on my grandmother’s birth certificate. I was already accepted in YHVH, so whether a wild olive branch grafted in, or a cut off branch grafted back in (Roman’s 11) doesn’t matter. I don’t seek your approval or any men’s approval to follow YHVH’s ways, nor need it. I have the approval of my Abba, my Messiah.

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    • Pete Rambo says:

      Thanks, Jack, and I concur with what you have written.

      Going further, Bruce likes the rabbinics, and he may want to look again and see if the rabbis think the Torah was in Gan Eden.

      I have demonstrated over and over on this blog from multiple angles that YHVH has One standard of righteousness for all mankind. One of the reasons He judged Judah was precisely because they were not being a Light, but hiding it from the nations. Mr Bruce would do well to consider the grave error of hiding YHVH and His standard from the nations. It is committing the exact same sin that got Judah in trouble in the first place. Very serious.

      Bruce, be a light, not a bushel basket trying to hide the light!

      Shalom!

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      • ברוס says:

        The biggest sin for a Jew or Israeli is idolatry something that christianity prides itself on. And every Jewish person knows that this is número uno mega big sin to the G-d of Israel.

        Pete you made some statements that aren’t true and you’ve done the typical christian thing which is to dismiss those who don’t agree with your jesus.

        Not to mention the post I did comment on i gave little to no rabbinical views. Even in your misguided view of the Psacal Lamb I mentioned no rabbinics.

        @Jack every Jewish person who was raised in Judaism in some shape or fashion know that our father Abraham kept the Oral and Written voluntarily. Also as you have have seen in the passages you’ve quoted G-d is referring to Israel/Judah and converts to Judaism, the Nations (non-jews) aren’t mentioned. NO jesus is mentioned either or hinted or alluded to. If Pete wants to worship a idol jesus and the G-d of Israel that’s his thing. But you as a Jew should know that we don’t do that. It’s all about G-d; not a man who claimed to be G-d.

        Christianity at the end of the day still has a problem with The Jewish people, as evident by Pete, there quick to label and condemn our practice of the Torah and then make jabs at the Talmud (even though christianity and its many sub divisions take on rabbinical practice without realizing it).

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      • Jack Jackson says:

        Where does the Scripture say anyone converts to Judasism? When was Judaism mentioned in Scripture?

        As for the jesus that Christianity portrays, one that would do away with the Torah, I too agree that jesus is not Messiah. But any read of the so called “New Testament” shows that Yeshua (which is salvation in Hebrew – hint, hint) never took away the Torah.

        If you judge Yeshua of Nazareth based on what His followers (so called, because most don’t do as He did) do than you are misled like they are, inheriting lies (Jer 16:19).

        If Yeshua is not the Messiah in Scripture, than who is even a close second?

        I believe He is the Messiah, I know Him and He and His Ruach are what lead me to turn to Torah.

        Liked by 1 person

  4. Jack Jackson says:

    Though I do not speak for Pete, I see no evidence he has any malice intent for anyone, yet seeks truth and comes against what he believes is not true. Maybe he just doesn’t like your doctrine?

    I know I have no issues with you as a man, I don’t even know you yet, only what you post. Some I agree with, other I do not. Does that mean I have a problem with anyone from the Tribes of Israel? Consider we believe Yeshua is the Son of God, and from the Tribe of Judah, and that He truly is the King of the Jews! I yet He is our King also. We hope to be brides of this King of the Jews, would that then make all who do Jews? Being married to Him?

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    • ברוס says:

      @Jack Unless you are talking about the word “Judaism” – which is semantics, but then you should look up Galatians 1:13-14, where Paul himself – before the destruction of the Temple – twice mentions (of his “former life” in) “Judaism” and of Jews being in “Judaism” (Ioudaismos).

      Judaism in Moses’ day was not exactly the same as in the times of Solomon. In fact, many things were different after the Temple was built. Yet it was not a different religion, but a continuation of the same faith. So it is with Judaism today.

      Also re-read Jeremiah 16:18-19 it says THE NATIONS (gentiles/non-jews) will COME TO THE JEWS saying they have inherited the lies of there fathers (meaning gentile fathers not jewish) and again G-d is the one saying this.

      Christianity and Islam are both gentile religions both believe in jesus both share the gospels; We don’t need jesus and neither does humanity as a whole, we have the G-d of Israel and He alone is deserving of praise and adoration.

      As for forgiveness of sins (which is the only thing christianity uses to entrap people)… Well before jesus, the G-d of Israel gave a clear understanding to the idea of sin and forgiveness there will be a worlds difference from the Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible…. The Jewish bible says:

      We Children of Israel are righteous. For the Torah says so. Of course, we must uphold the Torah, or otherwise we might cease to be righteous. But as long as we keep the Torah, we are righteous. The Prophets of the Torah warned us about this many times. They often called us wicked. When? When we did not obey the Commandments of the Torah. Yet never once in all of the Jewish Bible did the Prophets chastise us for not believing in jesus! Not once!

      I also have to wonder: if no one can be righteous in the eyes of G-d, how can the Torah call Noah righteous (Genesis 6:9, 7:1), as just one example? “Noah walked with G-d,” the Torah says. Obviously you can be righteous and you can walk with G-d without the help of jesus.

      Hashem called Moses a trusted servant, and closer to Him than any other prophet. Moses spoke directly to Hashem, and Hashem spoke directly to Moses (Numbers 12:6-8). No mention was made of jesus. The problem is that Christians do not understand the meaning of the concept of “righteousness.” They think it means that one has never sinned. Never sinning is almost impossible. The Torah says that:

      “There is no person on earth so righteous that he does only good and never sins” (Eccl. 7:20)

      Rather, the definition of a righteous person is as taught in Proverbs 24:16: “The righteous fall even seven times and still get up, but the wicked stumble in evil.” Being righteous does not mean that one never sins. It means that after you sin you get back up again, repent, and try again. You keep on trying. That is being righteous. Not only that, but even if you keep on trying, and you don’t succeed very well, and you have many sins, you can still be forgiven and go to Heaven. In the Book of Job (33:23) it says that if someone has even only one merit and 1000 sins, he is rescued from hell. So we are not doomed to hell.

      That’s what Judaism teaches, as we see from the Torah.

      The Christian bible, on the other hand, teaches that there is no repentance after sinning. Here is what it says in the christian bible:

      For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21)

      In other words, if anyone accepted jesus as savior, and then sins, they are in worse trouble than they were before they accepted jesus.

      So what then is the advantage of accepting jesus? It seems better to stay with Hashem! Hashem accepts repentance, and loves all those who turn away from sin, no matter how many times they have sinned and repented. “For the righteous stumble even seven times, but they get up again!”

      And they are still called righteous!

      And the wicked who repent are no longer called wicked.

      Even when I have told the wicked that he will die, but then he repents, and he does justice and righteousness; he returns the collateral when he is supposed to, he repays what he stole, he begins to live by the Laws of Life, and does not do evil, he will live, and he will not die. All the sins that he committed will not be held against him, for he has begun to do judgment and righteousness; he shall surely live. (Ezekiel 33:14-16)

      We see, therefore another fallacy of the Christians, who argue that “sin has separated us from a perfectly holy G-d.” We are not separated from Hashem at all. All we need to do is repent.

      But no, say the Christians. Repentance won’t work, for some reason that we cannot understand. They claim that “no one can be close to G-d without jesus.” This is completely wrong. The righteous live by their own faith. (Habbakuk 2:4) We do not gain life or atonement by the faith or righteousness of jesus. We are masters of our own fate, because the choice to do good or bad is our own.

      Was King David separated from G-d? Yet the Torah says about him that he did one thing wrong (1 Kings 15:5) and yet he was considered righteous and Hashem was with him. (See, for example, 1 Kings 11:34; 1 Kings 18:14).) Whenever a royal descendant of King David did the right thing, the Torah says about him that he followed in the ways of his ancestor David. (See, for example, 1 Kings 14:8; 2 Kings 18:3; 2 Kings 22:2; et al.)

      Did Moses sin? Was he close to G-d or not? Did Abraham sin? Was he close to G-d or not?

      And if you examine the Christian belief in this matter, you will find that many denominations believe that G-d only chooses those that G-d has previously decided to choose. In other words, G-d will accept into Heaven only those whom He has decided to accept into Heaven, and we have no free will or choice! That means that we cannot even be good people if we try! It’s all up to G-d! “Many are called, but few are chosen.”

      How is this merciful?

      What about all those people who are not chosen? How do they attain “salvation?” Why can they not attain salvation, when it isn’t even their fault? That is possibly the cruelest doctrine I have ever heard! No matter what a person does, he will get Heaven only if G-d had previously chosen him to get Heaven! Everyone else goes to eternal hell!

      In Judaism, it is entirely up to you. If you do good, you will get good.

      The G-d of Israel used jesus as an avenue to draw you back home, and thats to him not to his alleged “son” when G-d clearly tells moses and aaron to tell pharaoh that we the jewish people are His firstborn (exodus 4:22).

      I have nothing against you either Jack nor Pete but Jews being lead astray by manipulation of the Jewish bible by zealot teachings need to be corrected. But also keep in mind as pete gave a glimpse, he like many gentiles make jabs and snide remarks about our practice of Tanach and about the Talmud, primarily based of ignorance, but its shows there true motives.

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      • Pete Rambo says:

        Bruce,

        Judaism in Moses’ day was not exactly the same as in the times of Solomon. In fact, many things were different after the Temple was built. Yet it was not a different religion, but a continuation of the same faith. So it is with Judaism today.

        And, the reason it is changing is because of man’s tampering. The written Word does not change. It is the unwritten (and unbinding) traditions that get added, layer by layer to form a religion out of the relationship YHVH intended in Gan Eden and at Mt. Sinai.

        Mishle 30:4-5Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

        4 Who hath ascended into Shomayim, or descended? Who hath gathered ruach in the hollows of His hands? Who hath bound the mayim in a cloak? Who hath established all the afsei aretz (ends of the earth)? What is Shmo (His Name), and what is Shem Bno (the Name of His Son [See Memra, creative Word of G-d in Targumim]), if thou canst tell?

        Yeshayah 44:6Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

        6 Thus saith Hashem Melech Yisroel, and His Go’el, Hashem Tzva’os; I am the Rishon, and I am the Acharon; and apart from Me there is no Elohim.

        Zecharyah 12:10Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

        10 And I will pour upon the Bais Dovid, and upon the inhabitants of Yerushalayim, the Ruach (Spirit) of Chen (grace) and of Tachanunim (supplications for favor); and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced [dakar, “pierce through” cf. Yeshayah 53:5; Targum HaShivim Tehillim 22:17], and they shall mourn for Him (Moshiach) as one mourneth for his yachid (only son), and shall grieve in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his bechor (firstborn).

        Direct quotes from the OJB.

        Daniel prophesied exactly when the Messiah would come. Did he prophesy falsely? Or, did the Messiah come and was He pierced, exactly as prophesy declared?

        I recommend http://www.ahavatammi.org/

        Shavua tov!

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      • ברוס says:

        Pete your zeal has left out context in the Zechariah 12 your quoting (your just like the your christian buddies who parachute down to one verse and then say it “speaks” about jesus, totally removing context to push your agenda) The pierced individual or individuals there are people who have died in a battle, thats why Zechariah gives you a hint saying the mourning after its all done will be like Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon (He’s telling his readers to look back at 2 Kings 23 and 2Chronicles 35.)

        Also it says THE NATIONS (Non-Jews) will come up against Israel and it says that the NATION of Israel will mourn for him (jesus didn’t have a national mourning like Moses did; the Nation didn’t mourn for that guy, maybe a handful of people as recorded mourned but the Nation didn’t) also the wording in zechariah says “they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through” http://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2312.htm ….. They (the Israel) will look to Me (G-d) because they (The Nations) have thrust him (the one or ones killed in this battle) through.

        You don’t like CONTEXT it seems, all your zeal but no context.

        And your reading a translation Pete, read the Hebrew, even artscroll can’t render the hebrew into english properly. Its called “lost in translation” the hebrew language can’t be fully conveyed in english, even secular linguist know this. Also in linguistics theres something called “false cognates” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_cognate something else to keep in mind when your read the Jewish Bible and attempt to shoehorn jesus into it.

        …………..

        And pete your zeal has got in the way of context again, first your idea comes from midrash about Yosef (midrash are from our rabbi’s which your such an advocate against)….. secondly Yosef is from the tribe of Yosef and the whole Messiah ben Yosef is saying the Anointed one is from the tribe of Joseph or Ephraim.

        Need I go further? because jesus is suppose to be from the tribe of Judah not Joseph. Shapira is a christian too (messianic jew), but you call call jesus a pig all you want because he’s not kosher and never will be since G-d deemed NO SWINE to be fit.

        Daniels prophecy is correct but you zealots for jesus have it wrong. Your removing context and replacing it for agenda for jesus.

        Context Context Context……. Jewish Bible 101 P’Shat and then everything else builds off the P’Shat but IT NEVER DEPARTS FROM THE Plain sense of the subject in question. 🙂

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      • Pete Rambo says:

        Bruce,

        Whether I believe the rabbis or not is immaterial. YOU believe the rabbis and some of the rabbis say that the one pierced in Zechariah 12 is Messiah ben Yosef. Therefore, you have to deal with it. It is not a majority opinion, but since when is the majority right? Judaism loves to go with the majority, but the majority was wrong at the golden calf incident, the majority was wrong when the spies returned from the Land, the majority was wrong on Mt. Carmel, etc, etc.

        As to R. Shapira, he makes the case for a Divine Messiah from the Sages and the Rabbinics. He also will vigorously tell you he is NOT a christian, and, like me, believes there is much in Christendom that needs to be fixed. If you are a thinking man, then be brave enough to pick up his book and wrestle with it! Surely you have the chutzpah.

        As to Daniel, if his prophecy was correct, then the timing he prophesied points to the very beginning of the first century, CE. Who was the Messiah? Where is He?

        Seek truth and be willing to set tradition aside.

        Shalom!

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      • ברוס says:

        Pete listen to yourself… Messiah ben Yosef means the Anointed one Son of Joseph, according to the NT jesus father is G-d not Joseph (then many in christianity go into apologetics and explain that jesus was “legally” Joseph through adoption, which then would lead to the conclusion of jesus having two fathers. Secondly the Jewish Bible says nothing about this happening (please share with me if you see the Jewish bible clearly saying the Messiah is Divine or has two fathers).

        Also is jesus a Mashiach or a Moshiach now? (clearly two different hebrew words in both usage/meaning). Jews also got it wrong with jesus, with Bar Kochba too, No peace, and still division. The Messiah comes once and when he does will lead a war against the nations who come against Israel (Gog & Magog) and will bring universal peace to the nation of Israel and its people as well as the nations. jesus nor Bar Kochba did this. It wasn’t always our finest hour in our mishaps with the calf, the spies, etc.

        As for R. Shapira I’m well aware of the guy, I was in the deceptive practices of Messianic Judaism (another form of christianity) , Shapira was well respected in that arena especially with FFOZ (A Messianic publisher), but he like any other believer in jesus, practices christianity, no matter what you call it, its still christianity, he is still jewish ethnically but his religion is christianity. Messianic Judaism is not a Judaism, its a front for christianity.

        Israel has survived before jesus and continues to after he death. Because we have HaShem, G-d. Israel has been ridiculed and mocked by both christianity and islam but yet both faiths need the Jewish Bible as part of there holy books (irony).

        You should do a $10,000 challenge again, but this time asking people to show you where in the Jewish Bible does it say the Messiah will be “Divine” or “G-d son” or “Comes twice” lol 🙂 , I beg you to do a challenge like that.

        Like

      • Pete Rambo says:

        Ah, Bruce.

        Again, it is not I who say that Zechariah 12 speaks of Messiah ben Joseph…

        About these verses Rabbi Moshe Alsheich says,

        And yet I will do a third thing and it will be that when they look upon me and lift their eyes to me in full repentance, when they will see that the one whom they have pierced is Messiah son of Joseph, of whom our Rabbis of blessed memory have said, that he will recieve upon himself all of Israel’s guilt, then he shall be slain in wars to make atonement for them….

        from What the Rabbis Say About Moshiach

        b.Sukkah 52a:

        What is the cause of the mourning [Zech 12:10] – R.Dosa and the rabbis differ on the point. One explained, the cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, and the other explained, the cause is the slaying of the Evil Inclination…

        Rashi in his commentary on Sukkah 52a:

        The words, “The land shall mourn,” are found in the prophecy of Zechariah, and he prophesies of the future, that they shall mourn for Messiah the son of Joseph, who will be killed in the was of Gog and Magog.”

        Not my words. Those of the rabbis!

        If the Messiah did not come in the first century (490 years after the decree Daniel speaks of) then Daniel was wrong. Now what?

        Shalom!

        Like

      • ברוס says:

        Good morning Pete 🙂 ……..

        Ha! Nice try…. First you clearly express your distain for the Talmud in prior post but then you decide to quote the Talmud because “you think” it supports the christian agenda [i.e: jesus]. Much like christians you’ve again removed context and decided to parachute down and say “see this is clearly hinting to jesus” …. Oy!

        http://juchre.org/talmud/sukkah/sukkah3.htm#52a first here is an online Talmud, so you can see the whole context of whomever you pulled that from.

        Secondly when you read this entire tractate you’ll see that both Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David are both alive during this time (Yes two Anointed Ones – Saul and David were both Messiahs [anointed ones and existed together as well].) Again you error because jesus is allegedly from the tribe of Judah NOT Joseph. That’s what the Talmud and Midrash are saying when they say “Messiah ben Yosef” or “Messiah ben David”.

        With that knowledge alone your circular reasoning fails. Because the NT asserts that both Joseph and Mary come from the line of David (i.e.: Judah’s Tribe) NOT Josephs Tribe.

        Secondly when you read the entire tractate you’ll see that Messiah ben Joseph was slain IN FRONT OF Messiah ben David.

        Secondly again you’ll read that the sages differ on if its the Messiah ben Joseph or Evil Inclination that gets slain. here’s and excerpt from the link provided:

        What is the cause of the mourning [mentioned in the last cited verse]?1 — R. Dosa and the Rabbis differ on the point. One explained, The cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph,7 and the other explained, The cause is the slaying of the Evil Inclination.

        It is well according to him who explains that the cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, since that well agrees with the Scriptural verse, And they shall look upon me because they have thrust him through, and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son;8 but according to him who explains the cause to be the slaying of the Evil Inclination, is this [it may be objected] an occasion for mourning? Is it not rather an occasion for rejoicing? Why then should they weep? — [The explanation is] as R. Judah expounded: In the time to come9 the Holy One, blessed be He, will bring the Evil Inclination and slay it in the presence of the righteous and the wicked. To the righteous it will have the appearance of a towering hill, and to the wicked it will have the appearance of a hair thread. Both the former and the latter will weep; the righteous will weep saying, ‘How were we able to overcome such a towering hill!’ The wicked also will weep saying, ‘How is it that we were unable to conquer this hair thread!’ And the Holy One, blessed be He, will also marvel together with them, as it is said, Thus saith the Lord of Hosts, If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, it shall10 also be marvellous in My eyes.11

        R. Assi stated, The Evil Inclination is at first like the thread of a spider, but ultimately12 becomes like cart ropes, as it is said, Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart-rope.13

        Our Rabbis taught, The Holy One, blessed be He, will say to the Messiah, the son of David (May he reveal himself speedily in our days!), ‘Ask of me anything, and I will give it to thee’, as it is said, I will tell of the decree etc. this day have I begotten thee, ask of me and I will give the nations for thy inheritance.14 But when he will see that the Messiah the son of Joseph is slain, he will say to Him, ‘Lord of the Universe, I ask of Thee only the gift of life’.’As to life’, He would answer him, ‘Your father David has already prophesied this concerning you’, as it is said, He asked life of thee, thou gavest it him, [even length of days for ever and ever].15

        R. ‘Awira or, as some say, R. Joshua b. Levi, made the following exposition: The Evil Inclination has seven names. The Holy One, blessed be He, called it Evil, as it is said, For the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.16 Moses called it the Uncircumcised, as it is said, Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart.17 David called it Unclean, as it is said, Create me a clean heart, O Lord,18 which implies that there is an unclean one. Solomon called it the Enemy, as it is said, If thine enemy19 be hungry, give him bread20 to eat and if he be thirsty give him water to drink.21 For thou wilt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord will reward thee;22 read not, ‘will reward thee’23 but ‘will cause it to be at peace with thee.’24 Isaiah called it the Stumbling-Block, as it is said, Cast ye up, Cast ye up, clear the way, take up the stumbling-block out of the way of my people.25 Ezekiel called it Stone, as it is said, And I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh and I will give you a heart of flesh.26 Joel called it the Hidden One, as it is said, But I will remove far off from you the hidden one.27

        G-d nor His Torah is not hidden (Deut 30:11-14) but the evil inclination is and it traps not only jews but humanity, in believing G-d is not One or that G-d has some type of “divine son” (basically Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity) are the stumbling blocks of the Jewish people and the World. But HaShem has allowed them to be so dominate cause when the real Messiah comes the NATIONS will see the error (Jer 16:18-20) of there ways and repent and turn to the Jewish people to be taught more about the One True G-d and to Worship the G-d of Israel. [The Nations will stop uttering and creating buddha images, praying to Mecca and some black rock asteroid, and invoking the name jesus as equal with G-d or as G-d “son”]….. That will all cease and only י-ה-ו-ה will be recognized and praised as He should be.

        Your so invested in jesus and agenda driven jesus “seeing” that you can’t even read this in context (either Tanach or Talmud). Invest in the G-d of Israel not some man who claimed to be G-d like many before and after him.

        As for daniel and his prophecy, here is a REAL JEWISH position and proper teaching on the subject. He cites references (unlike the video you showed me) he doesn’t make ambiguous statements (unlike the video you showed me) and he explains the christians position and cites there references in context to what christian understanding is and explains how they misinterpreted the Hebrew of the text (unlike like the video you showed me)…….. And you’ll notice CONTEXT and PROPER Midrash understanding and explanation. I sat through your video with attentive ears and trying to see if I missed something (I didn’t and noticed many lack of evidence remarks) can you sit through a video that keeps scripture in context and CLEARLY explains something?

        Like

      • Pete Rambo says:

        Is the Talmud the Word of YHVH, or the opinions of men?

        Like

      • ברוס says:

        The short answer is Yes: [but do you even study Talmud? or are you just parroting clips and sound bits from “talmud” scholars?] Learned Jews of the Torah and Talmud can engage in discussions like this against christians who try to distort our text. Unlearned individuals cannot….I’m pretty sure you’ve railed against your own christian sect for them being “unlearned” as to what G-d says in His Torah, but with your zeal, you’ve left out context and keeping the integrity of our text…… Without going on a rabbit trail, allow me to explain why we say Yes.

        In today’s society this is a social dynamic and is reflected in the method by which legislation is passed in the Talmud and later. Although complex, one can distinguish three encompassing principles that define what makes new halachic legislation binding:

        1. The legislation is passed after discussion and debate by a governing body or appointed individual whose authority has been established by consensus of the people. At one time, this body was the Sanhedrin, which was composed of scholars and judges who had been accepted by the people in their particular communities and gradually moved up to the highest authoritative body. The decisions of the Sanhedrin were made by majority rule.

        At a later date, this authority became the Gaonim of Babylon. Since the times of the early Rishonim, halachic decisions have been the product of intense discussion and debate between diverse opinions on an international scale. Who debates? Whoever has the knowledge and whits.

        2. The legislation must be based on strong precedent. No Jewish court ever said, “Let’s make up a new law today” out of the blue. An educated populace would never accept such a law. Rather, as every student of the Talmud can see, every law is either:

        a) a clarification of an ambiguous matter of accepted law

        b) a stamp of approval on an accepted custom

        c) an establishment of required stringency due to extenuating circumstances

        This is all clarified in Maimonides’ introduction to Sefer HaMitzvot, as well as in his introduction to his Commentary on the Mishnah.

        This is the way of the Talmud when dealing with a new circumstance: Plunge the depths of the original text of Moses, examining every nuance [IN HEBREW], following the principles of exegesis [P’shat-Remez-Drash-Sod] that were passed down to us in his name. Compare every known ruling on similar cases, searching for the reasoning behind each one and seeking a harmony between them. Discuss, debate, build and tear down, until an opinion arises that can be accepted by a majority.

        If I can provide my own parallel: The process of devising a new halachah is not much different than the process of good environmental design.Halachah and environmental design have much in common It’s perfectly possible to build a factory in the middle of a forest without adversely impacting the ecology of the wildlife and resources—it just takes a thorough knowledge of the dynamics of that ecology and a desire to leave no footprint behind. Similarly, any decision in halachah can only be enacted after weighing into consideration the entire gamut of pre-existing Jewish law and custom. One can say that halachah grows organically, without grafting or genetic modification.

        3. Perhaps most significant: Every new legislation is contingent upon its acceptance by the Jewish community at large. A striking example (real brief): At one point in the history of the Sanhedrin, the Schools of Shammai and Hillel passed several key points of legislation, including a prohibition against using the olive oil of a gentile. They also declared that none of this legislation could ever be overturned. Yet, years later, the Bet Din of Rabbi Judah the Prince overturned their ruling and ruled that this oil was permissible. How were they able to do this? Simply because they saw that the original legislation had never become accepted by the community17.

        Similarly, in each community, there are rulings made by the accepted authoritative body of that particular community. Not only do these rulings not apply to another community, but if they are not accepted by the members of that particular community, they are subject to reversal.

        And we are not speaking of ignorant masses. In every community, whosoever has the mind to do so is urged to learn the ways of the Talmud from his youth, so he, too, can fathom the rationale of any decision.

        This is why we say the Oral Law is under Divine Authority. [Not to mention Leviticus and Genesis confirms TWO Torahs].

        In sum, the process of halachah is a populist dynamic, by the people, for the people, yet simultaneously, on the authority of Divine Law.

        This is the answer to your question, where do these rabbis get the authority to make such laws to begin with? The answer is that they receive it from three sources: From G‑d, from Moses and from the people.

        From G‑d, because the Torah itself provides ample authority to the seventy elders and to the “priests and the wise men who will be in your times” to answer “all that is difficult for you” to the point that “you should not turn from their words to the left nor to the right.”[Check out Deuteronomy 17 for context in particular verses 8-12]

        From Moses, as we have seen, that he decided those wise men should be from the masses, and that all the people should learn to be wise. It was Moses, after all, who declared that the Torah is no longer in heaven “that you should say, ‘who will go up to heaven and get it for us?’”. Check out Deuteronomy 30:12

        And from the people, as we have seen, that it is the people who establish these rabbis as their authority, not out of ignorance or apathy or blind faith, but within the context of a literate and educated society.

        This is why we say in Judaism finding G‑d in the details

        And here is my vital point: Torah, you see, is not a staid book, nor is it a malleable plastic, but a living organism. An organism adapts, but doesn’t change. As the weather changes and so, too, its environment, the polar bear, the dolphin and the bacterial cell find the keys within their own DNA to cope with the new and survive. Similarly, as the Jewish People travel through the vicissitudes of history, storming every form of culture and society ever known to humankind, they look in the Torah and find, “Yes! Here is the solution for this particular situation. All was foreseen, everything was provided for us, by He by whose word all things come to be.”

        For this, the Maharal of Prague provided another parable. He likens our situation to a man who moves into a home built by a master architect. The man finds all in place, in exquisite design and order. Yet, in one place, it seems a door is missing. There is a lintel, there are doorposts, even hinges in place. Within is a room that needs to be shut off from the rest of the house. So the man fashions a door, in accordance with every other door in the house, to match the fittings of the open doorway.

        So, too, says the Maharal, when the story of Esther occurred and the rabbis established the festival of Purim; when merchants began to trade on the Shabbat and the rabbis established the laws of muktzah; when Jewish society became primarily mercantile and the rabbis established the pruzbul. And in our day, as we deal in medical halachah and supervision of the food industry—at each step along the way, we find the lintel, the doorposts and the hinges awaiting our finishing touches.

        And whose door are we placing? Not our own, says the Maharal, but that of the Master Architect. For all is His design, only that He has provided us the privilege of being His partner in completing His world.

        This was precisely Moses’ intent: That Torah should come from within, not from without, from below, not from above. He recognized that, even though he had not been Divinely instructed so, this was the true intent. It’s just that you can’t direct a populist revolution from above, so it had to come from Moses himself.

        That is why what we do is called Judaism—and not “Scripturalism” or “Torahism” (there was such a movement, called Karaism). Judaism believes in the Jews, meaning, in the Torah that is revealed through the Jewish People. Because G‑d relies upon our communal understanding through history to unfold His wisdom in the world. He knows that if He tells us, “an eye for an eye,” we will understand from the context that He really meant monetary compensation. He knows that if He tells us to study Torah, we will read it in public three times a week and dance with it at the end of the cycle. He looks at those stringencies and customs of ours and says, “Yes! They got the idea!” He sees our collective consciousness not as an obstacle to His wisdom, but rather as its conduit, since, as the Zohar teaches, “no place is void of him”—not even the human mind.

        I would encourage you to really apply Context to your future post and be more honest to what the text is saying and is not saying (If your really in love with the G-d of Israel you’d respect the Jewish Bible as such).

        We aren’t idiots or “blind” as your christian bible calls us. 🙂

        Like

      • Pete Rambo says:

        Everything that you said in the first half of your reply could be said about the US Constitution. It is a legal code that has been interpreted and reinterpreted by men who have understanding and then agreed on by the people. The result? 230 years after its original giving we are already far from its original intent in many areas and there is a legal ‘justification’ for every deviation.

        I would agree that the Talmud has some value and a good bit of wisdom, but at the end of the day, like the much vaunted Christian commentators of the last 2000 years, they all have error. What is infallible is the written Word of YHVH. After that, it is incumbent upon every student to seek and be willing to ask hard questions and return to the root.

        The ‘Christian’ Bible doesn’t call you blind or idiots. A Jewish Rabbi called some of the religious leaders blind guides. There is a BIG difference.

        I affirm that the Jewish people are important and are part of God’s chosen people. But more than Judah, Benjamin and part of Levi left Egypt and stood at Mt. Sinai. The Talmud says that they (the rest of Israel) still haven’t come home as promised. Where’d they go? How can they be found? By what mechanism will they be restored? Who will they be?

        Like

      • ברוס says:

        Purim Sameach! 🙂 and Good morning…..

        Great questions…. The Jewish people or the rest of Israel is ALL over this earth…. Here in the USA the biggest concentration of Jews are in NY, so as you know when the bible says exile it can connotate both spiritual and physical.

        Physically all of Israel are NOT back home in Israel (myself included) but we see everyday how Millions of Jews (either ethnically or converts) are going home. Why? Because of the growing anti-Semitism around the world. In Zechariah G-d describes that the Nations (non Jews) will come against Israel in addition to the Gog and MaGog events.

        It’s cushy living in America (I’ll be honest in addition the level of anti-Semitism isn’t as high here as it is in parts of Europe and Canada) also to make Aliyah is no easy matter (meaning you need a plan in place once you arrive in Israel it would be unwise to just show up and not be ready to contribute and sustain a decent way of living) … Despite cushy America many are still leaving or making serious plans to leave the USA and Canada has been having a HUGE number of Jews leaving and coming home.

        Also more young Jews are returning and seeing the highly spiritual nature of Judaism and are re-connecting with HaShem. There’s still much work to be done but HaShem is working and many are waking up to the lies and ambiguousness of Islam Hinduism Christianity and Buddhism…. Again younger Jews are being more aware and taking hold of the richness of Torah and it’s applicability today.

        Anti-Semitism will probably be the vehicle to force Jews to go back to Israel. Jews are blamed for everything (killing jesus the apparent “son” of G-d, thus why we are “punished” or having a “hard heart” Romans 11:25-26 and note that the rouge Rabbi Paul blatantly altered Isaiah 59:20 to fit his agenda in Romans 11:26) , changing the Torah (as Islam asserts, since they claim they have the REAL Torah lol) , not exuding a spiritualism (as Hindu/Buddhism asserts) … Jews are the scape goat for the Esau (Greek/Roman) religion christianity and the Ishmael (Arab/Arabia) religion Islam …. It’s okay though because HaShem allows this.

        Lastly though Pete, your a gentile so Talmud has no bearing on you (you can study it) but don’t be so arrogant to make jabs at Jews or Judaism since you don’t practice what’s in it. Same goes with Torah (you can do it) but don’t be so arrogant to belittle and make jabs at our practice because of G-d didn’t choose us and we didn’t keep the Torah and preserve it as your religion crusaded the world forcing all cultures to convert or die, you wouldn’t have that Torah your claiming your truly in understanding of.

        The Tanach says the Nations non Jews will come to the Jews to learn not the other way around. Be humble and listen and examine both side (Proverbs 18:17)

        Like

  5. ברוס says:

    Also Jack, the Messiah in the Jewish Bible never dies….Isn’t beaten or whipped or mocked by his jewish brothers and sisters….And the Messiah (Anointed One) comes ONCE not twice. Also since you read hebrew you may have noticed that there were gentile messiahs and jewish messiahs in the jewish bible (Saul was a Messiah (anointed one) david was one, koresh or cyrus was G-d’s anointed one (i.e.:Messiah in hebrew) and he was a gentile king, there is no term “HaMashiach” in the Jewish Bible and thats A FACT!

    Christians are oblivious to this because they don’t read the Jewish Bible in Hebrew or with someone who knows the language, they don’t even read their christian bible in Greek. So they make up for this lack of understanding with misplaced zeal and something called “Circular Reasoning” … Google it.

    Like

    • Pete Rambo says:

      Bruce,

      the Messiah in the Jewish Bible never dies….Isn’t beaten or whipped or mocked by his jewish brothers and sisters…

      Au contraire… Yosef, the favored son who had the birthright, was mocked by his brothers, especially Judah. He was beaten and thrown in a pit, portrayed to all who would listen as ‘dead’, sold for silver and forgotten. That was his first coming to find his brothers. Please remind me what happens at his second appearing?

      There are many messianic figures in Scripture who all portent or display aspects of who the future real Messiah is. The Prince.

      You might enjoy reading what some of the sages have to say…

      According to Rabbi Hayon’s quoting of various sources, the sages believe the pig will return and will become kosher for consumption. Somehow his nature will be changed. One of the remazim that are given to us is that the root letters of the word hazir are Het-Zayin-Resh from which are also derived the word hazar, which literally means “to return.” The Hebrew root letters have a dual meaniong – either “pig” or “to return.”

      Rabbi Hayon explains that according to the secrets of the Torah, there is a “prince in the heavens” and his name is Hazir-El, which is literally translated “the pig of God,” or even “the pig is God.” The the rabbi makes the incredible comment: “This particular prince is the Prosecutor of Israel and in the future God will return him to Israel to be its defender.”

      According to R. Hayon commenting on the Radbaz’s work, the “Kosher Pig” is none other than an angel who will have the authority to be the defender of Israel before the Mighty One of Israel. And since he will return, the implication is that he was here before!

      Some within the Jewish faith reject the idea that the same Messiah will appear twice. However, right here in the Jewish writings of our sages, it is clear that the expectation of a returning prince, or at the very least a returning angel, exists; one who comes not as Israel’s accuser, but rather as Israel’s defender. A compelling parallel to this idea can be found directly in the prophet Zechariah (he then quotes and expounds 12:10-12)…

      This quote, from p.13 of Rabbi Itzhak Shapira’s awesome work, The Return of the Kosher Pig, The Divine Messiah in Jewish Thought. Highly recommended for a tour through many many sages and their thoughts as they pertain to the Messiah. You will be shocked at what you didn’t know! This is an amazing extremely well researched and documented work that ALL, Jew and Christian, who desire to better understand the identity of the Messiah MUST read!

      Shavua tov!

      Like

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