Recently, I have been doing more reading and studying of topics and perspectives related to the historic division between Christianity and Judaism and trying to dig more into what the correct theological understanding is of being grafted-in. Contrary to the general respective positions of Christianity and Judaism, that each is correct and the other wrong, I continue to be pressed toward a mediatorial position where I see both parties as wrong and in fact, near mirror images of each other in willful division from the other. Yet, logic says the common root demands a fork in the tree, a fork that happens after ‘the faith once delivered’ as witnessed throughout the Book of Acts and all Apostolic writings that support keeping Torah AND having faith in Yeshua. (Rev. 12:17; 14:12)
In other words, the ‘faith once delivered’ was bastardized and justified AFTER the canon was closed. Scripture was then taken out of context and/or twisted in order to blur the trail back to 35-50 CE! But, I digress….
Here is an older article I found at a favorite blog that asks the question:
What are the Respective Costs of Christian Anti-Judaism and Exclusionist Messianic Teachings?
The Consequences of Christian Anti-Judaism
We know that Christianity is anti-Judaic.
There’s the anti-Semitic Church history, the anti-Judaic hermeneutics which make Christians think that the New Testament doesn’t promote Judaism but rather discourages it, the Christian preference for non-Biblical practices of pagan origin, etc. So what is the cost of all of this?It would be flat out wrong to say that Christians will suffer all the Deuteronomic curses because of this. The blessings/curses listed in Deuteronomy are primarily contingent on national obedience. Thus, there’s no guarantee that any individual person who observes the Torah will be blessed or that any individual person who rejects the Torah will suffer curses. It’s entirely possible that a Believer who lives his whole life unaware of Judaism could live a prosperous life–and even have a good relationship with G-d. So why follow the Torah?Because the Law helps us to know G-d, to orient to Him, to better our relationship with Him. Thus, at a minimum, the Christian who rejects New Testament Judaism and opts for a syncretistic religion like Christianity is HURTING his relationship with G-d. It means that a Christian’s relationship with G-d is not as good as it could be.But, maximally, a Christian is distorting the gospel and this has really bad consequences for Jews who are in desperate need of hearing a gospel that the Torah will actually allow them to accept.The Consequences of Messianic ExclusionismThose One Law adherents out there know that Exclusionist Messianic Jews who teach that Gentile Believers in Yeshua are excluded from the national covenants of Israel (and the right/duty of all Israelite citizens to observe Torah), that this is not in accord with the teachings of the New Testament. We know that the New Covenant is just as much a national covenant of Israel as the Old Covenant. We see covenantal inclusion of gentiles in Acts 15 (“a people called by His name”); We see it in Cornelius, that it is praiseworthy (i.e. good) for a gentile and member of the New Covenant to choose to follow Torah (since he had a reputation for observing well the Torah of Moses); We see it in Paul’s instructions to the gentiles to abandon gentileness (1 Cor. 12:2; Eph 2; Eph 4) and embrace their status as members of the national covenants of Israel (Eph 2) and in his exhortation to the gentiles that they put into practice everything they’ve observed him practice; We see it in Peter’s statements to the gentiles (1 Peter 2); We see it in the historical reality that ex-pagan Gentiles had no other religious option than Judaism and that they were well-known to be observing Judaic practices (Col. 2). Etc, etc.So what’s the harm in those of the Exclusionist camp in teaching that gentiles are excluded from the national covenants of Israel (i.e. Old and New Covenants)?It would be wrong to say that such Exclusionists will suffer Deuteronomic curses. However, if gentiles are meant to be included in the national covenants, then teaching them that they are excluded could, at a minimum, lead to role/identity confusion that damages their relationship with G-d, and, at a maximum, could imperil the souls of the ones who, seeking Judaism in non-Messianic communities, end up rejecting Yeshua in order to feel included in the Jewish community.
Please share some thoughts. I’ll post a few in the comments, later.
natsab 
Here’s your statement that grabbed my attention:
“Contrary to the general respective positions of Christianity and Judaism, that each is correct and the other wrong, I continue to be pressed toward a mediatorial position where I see both parties as wrong and in fact, near mirror images of each other in willful division from the other. ”
When are you going to write your book about that? 😉
I share this understanding. The article you reposted goes a long way toward addressing the costs of Christian anti-Judaism. My godly grandparents, for example, never understood anything about Torah, nor as far as I know ever had any reason to ask about their connection to Judaism. They left this life having made huge impact for the Kingdom of Heaven just by loving Jesus the way they were taught. And yet how much more would that impact and the blessings on their lives have been had they known of their connection to Torah? Such has been the case in the past, but now knowledge is increased just as Daniel prophesied. In our generation a more complete picture is available, so we are now without excuse for our ignorance. If I understand the counsel of scripture correctly, once that covering of ignorance is removed, the consequences – both for good and for evil – multiply based on our response.
One more thought: Thinking along these lines of the divergence of Judaism and Christianity leads to the question of salvation. Maybe we (both Christians and Jews) don’t understand it quite right. Most certainly there is only one Name by which we are saved, and that is Yeshua ha Mashiach. But there are multitudes of Jews through the ages who have loved the Word of God and obeyed it as best they understood. Who am I to say they will not be part of the Kingdom? Maybe we should go back and look at this again, asking for Abba’s revelation on what His Word really tells us.
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Funny. I’ve been wrestling the last few days with whether or not to tackle the HUGE task of articulating/collating in a systematic way my growing understanding, particularly of One Law and how both groups (heaven forbid I dare say, ‘houses…’ LOL!) fit into this picture as prophesied and foreshadowed in Scripture.
Totally agree about your grandparents. My dad is the same. My very real concern is for the professing believers in my family who know that I know something, but they close ears and eyes!! THAT is scary!
On salvation: Totally agree again!! (Want to co-author? LOL!) If Torah was hidden from us and Messiah was hidden from them, what makes either of us think that the other is doomed? I think (need to dig this out more clearly) we are accountable to the Judge for what He reveals to us! Many in the Kingdom will be surprised to find that they were missing some pieces and need to go back to class… (I’m looking forward to the many sessions the Apostle Paul is going to teach titled, ‘I do not think I said what you think I said!’)
Shabbat Shalom!
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Hmmm, co-author. . . Might be a worthwhile venture. Now that we’ve floated the idea half in gest, let’s see if HaShem would like to take it somewhere.
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I was really scared you’d say that after I typed it… LOL!
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Pete,
Having thought about this for many years. Here are a couple of gems that might help you.
I have noticed that Paul quoting Exodus uses the term compassion or lack thereof, as a choice God makes in Romans 9:15.
“And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” Exodus 33:19
Paul then speaking farther about the potter having control over the clay, links this verse in Exodus to Hosea’s prophecy.
“And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea,
“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”
“AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.” Romans 9:23-26
I puzzled for quite while why Paul felt Hosea was speaking to Gentiles and what message he was really laying out for the Romans.
Eventually and I realized that Hosea had made a startling prophecy in the verses just ahead of the verses Paul quotes from Hosea 1:10 and 2:23
The radical and out of the box prophecy Hosea had made was in Hosea 1:6-7
6 Then she conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. And the LORD said to him, “Name her Lo-ruhamah, for I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel, that I would ever forgive them.7 But I will have compassion on the house of Judah and deliver them by the LORD their God, and will not deliver them by bow, sword, battle, horses or horsemen.”
The point of Paul’s Romans grafting in discourse is that ONLY Judah has received compassion, the northern tribes have been made vessels of dishonor if you will. “for I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel”. Judah is all that is left of Israel as a nation, the northern kingdom had become pagan, gentiles “no longer a people” as Isaiah had prophesied in Isaiah 7:8 not to mention that they had become persona-non-grata as a result of Hosea’s prophesy in 1:9 that “you are not my people and I am not your God”
Non the less verse 11 of chapter one of Hosea tells us there is a future
“And the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel will be gathered together,
And they will appoint for themselves one leader,
And they will go up from the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel.”
So here is the question what is the avenue for “the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel will be gathered together,” if Israel has become persona-non-grata?
The answer must be that these “NOW” gentiles must be grafted in to Judah the one who obtained compassion.
Which explains why Paul wraps up the section of grafting in in chapter 11:25-26
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
So that is how I see it. Northern Israel became gentiles, Judah became Israel, or better said all that is left of Israel as a nation. thus they are the only ones entitled to use the name.
Who-so-ever will may come God has always had the doors open for strangers and aliens, but Galatians 3:29 tells us who it is who comes.
“And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.”
Study Galatians 3:29 in the greek and it becomes very clear who is coming home.
The Gentile church never had a chance to replace Judah. Their only hope even today is to join Judah.
Thus the need for the grafting.
Thanks again for your work,
Barry
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Excellent summation and much the way I see it.
I don’t really like the ‘two house’ monicker as the term has been misused as a platform for covert replacement… yet, like you I ask/want to answer the theological question: What is the avenue for the joining/gathering of the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel?
Recently, I was told that Israel/Judah in these passages is paralellism… yet, multiple places paralellism is impossible because different destinies are clearly articulated for Israel and for Judah. Witness the passage you quote above. Israel=no compassion while Judah=compassion. Therefore, they can’t be equal.
Further, Ezekiel 37. The two sticks are a) Judah and the sons of Israel and b) Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions. Even in this we see two things: a) partial fulfillment that occurred at return from Babylon and at Pentecost wherein some of scattered Israel DID come home, but b) clearly not fulfilled indicates the major gathering of ‘all the house of Israel’ which we would agree is end-times.
The key is to go back through every single mention in the Tanakh and identify which uses are parallel, as some are, and which uses are absolutely not and often unfulfilled.
I would ask my brother Judah, ‘How is it that in Ezekiel 47:21-23, aliens and strangers will have an inheritance and be treated as native-born? Further, who exactly are the land divisions in chapter 48 going to? NOBODY knows who is of Naphtali, Asher, Dan, etc… Nobody! Does the Prince take out the Urim and Thumim to determine IF a person belongs, then which tribe and clan?”
For Judah, the case must be made from the Tanakh. For Christendom, the point must be made that we do not understand what it means to be grafted in!!
Rambling… BIG topics…
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Rambling can be a good thing. Eventually the dross drops out and the silver floats to the top. 😉
Something jumped out at me in this week’s Torah portion:
Then Moses and Aaron took these men who had been mentioned by name, and they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month; and they recited their ancestry by families, by their fathers’ houses, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and above, each one individually. As the LORD commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the Wilderness of Sinai. (Numbers 1:17-19 NKJV)
This is different from the census at the departure from Egypt. Exodus 12:37 only says there were “about six hundred thousand men”. This census in Numbers 1 organizes the entire nation for war. Notice that it happened at the beginning of the second year after leaving Egypt, after the journey to Sinai, the provision of water, manna, and quail, building the Tabernacle, consecrating the priests, and instituting the worship of YHVH as He specified. Next priority is organizing the people into tribes. What I noticed this time around is that the organization wasn’t done until AFTER these higher priorities were satisfied. Next thing I noticed is that the heads of families recited (or declared) their ancestry. Remember that a mixed multitude came out of Egypt, and I surmise that the non-native Israelites (the Gentiles grafted in to Israel) outnumbered the native born. Seems to me what happened in this particular census is that the men declared their ethnic background, and then chose their tribal affiliation. After all, they had had just over a year to associate with the native born and come to a conclusion which tribe would be the best fit for their families.
Do the sages have anything to say on this? If something like this actually happened, then it seems logical that it will happen again when Abba assembles the tribes as He promised.
By the way, if you have read or seen “Divergent”, it’s an interesting presentation of what this process might look like.
Pete – let’s ruminate on that book idea. Maybe some email exchange and a Skype date would be useful in the near future.
Shabbat Shalom, Brothers!
Al
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Rambling understandable… big topic for sure
There are little nuances like the below, that even in English, we can pick up, surely there are more in the original.
This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. Ezekiel 37:19
Notice that Joseph’s stick is joined to the stick of Judah…. Not Vice versa.
Judah does not join Joseph… Joseph joins Judah
To your question how does this happen?
I don’t have the answer either… Other than it will happen.
I have a notion it will go the same as it did for David. First Judah will crown him King and yield to his leadership and then the rest will follow in turn over time. That is just a guess, but appears to be the pattern.
If that is the case what is it that just happened for the last 2000 years? I just don’t know…
It’s my opinion that Joseph needs to walk in the giftings Jacob gave him and happily encourage Judah in his. I think the whole story starts in Genesis 49 with Jacob’s blessing all twelve of his sons
Indeed all twelve need to value each other and make space for each other. Encourage each other and stop the bickering.
Here is a thought… As you said the “Two House” moniker is damaged, how about we attempt a twelve house or tribe renewal built on encouragement and valuing diversity. It almost sounds modern (GRINS)
This kind of fits with what Barking Fox just wrote… I don’t know do we just announce “Hey I think I fit here….?”
Barry
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Regarding the last two thousand years, perhaps we have a model in the rebellion of Absolom (II Samuel 15-19). We would have to ponder this some more, but it may be that there’s a link between Absalom’s attempt to usurp David’s throne and the attempt of the Christian traditions to usurp Judah’s place. After all, that’s what Ephraim has been trying to do ever since the rebellion against Rehoboam. As for Judah’s recognition of Messiah, there may be something in what David said to his kindred at his return from exile:
So King David sent to Zadok and Abiathar the priests, saying, “Speak to the elders of Judah, saying, ‘Why are you the last to bring the king back to his house, since the words of all Israel have come to the king, to his very house? You are my brethren, you are my bone and my flesh. Why then are you the last to bring back the king?’ (II Samuel 19:11, 12 NKJV)
Judah got the message and went to welcome David, and then the rest of the tribes followed suit. That fits with the picture of all us non-Jews joining with Judah. It also fits with Isaiah’s prophecy of how we finally get along:
Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim. (Isaiah 11:13 NKJV)
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Very interesting that you would bring up Absalom. Two or three weeks ago I was reading that very story, drawn to it for exactly the same reasons and similar conclusions…
What made me start looking hard at the story was Absalom defiling the ten concubines on the rooftop. (2 Sam 15:16)
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Barking Fox,
Thank you,
I love it… That makes perfect sense to me.
So can we define roles? David sends sons of Levi to Judah, Judah restores David, The Northern tribes claim they came back first…sounds familiar and then this….1 Now a troublemaker named Sheba son of Bikri, a Benjamite, happened to be there. He sounded the trumpet and shouted,
“We have no share in David,
no part in Jesse’s son!
Every man to his tent, Israel!”
2 So all the men of Israel deserted David to follow Sheba son of Bikri. But the men of Judah stayed by their king all the way from the Jordan to Jerusalem.
3 When David returned to his palace in Jerusalem, 2 Samuel 20
Wow we may have some very interesting days ahead… not sure how far we should take the pattern but it seems to be playing out pretty much like you describe.
Nice work,
Barry
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Pete and Barking,
Ten concubines? Hmmm Nice touch.
I don’t really want to leave the David returns, story, I envision him coming into Jerusalem from the east across the Mount of Olives. The parallels to this story are very strong. We need to keep working this theme.
But I want to put in front of both of you a story from my life, as you each seem to be looking for common ground for these two brothers or camps if you will.
In the year 2000, two events happened, which stand out as remarkable.
After 40 years of sitting in church, I somehow came to understand that the light and the furnace, described in Genesis 15, which passed between the pieces for Abram, was Yeshua.
I came to this conclusion because of Revelation 1:14-15 “his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace”. Abram saw him in great darkness therefore Abram only saw the light and the furnace. But John sees him among the candle sticks.
The implication then was that Yeshua was guaranteeing Abram, children on a specific piece of ground and doing so on pain of a bloody death.
That summer I was privileged to dig for the archaeologist David Livingston at the town of Psagot ten miles north of Jerusalem. (You can see a picture of Dr. Livingston on my Google + feed.) Dr. Livingston believed that the area just to the east of town was the original biblical Ai. While this location is still in dispute by some, all the land forms necessary seem to be in place.
We were hosted and wonderfully kept in homes, for two weeks by the Orthodox families of Psagot. Please understand the Orthodox town of Psagot is right next to Ramallah and Al Beria, the heart of the Intifada, which would start that fall. In the summer of 2000 things were very tense and these good people lived there with their children, at risk of their lives every day.
If Dr. Livingston is right about his location for Ai, then Psagot is on the mountain where Abram offered sacrifices
From there he went on toward the hills east of Bethel and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he built an altar to the LORD and called on the name of the LORD. Genesis 12:8
Here is my point, the people of Psagot believe so strongly in the Abrahamic covenant that they risk their lives and the lives of their children because they want to walk out the facts of the covenant in their lives physically on the ground.
Certainly they believe in the guarantee of the light and the furnace who walked between the pieces for Abram.
Can anyone call them unbelievers?
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However, if gentiles are meant to be included in the national covenants, then teaching them that they are excluded could, at a minimum, lead to role/identity confusion that damages their relationship with G-d, and, at a maximum, could imperil the souls of the ones who, seeking Judaism in non-Messianic communities, end up rejecting Yeshua in order to feel included in the Jewish community.
Pete,
I understand how some could feel “exclusion” is an appropriate term for those who try to maintain a distinction between Jews and Gentiles. I have no idea who the author is or what he’s talking about when he says that some teach that Gentile believers have no share in the covenant blessings etc. I’ve literally never heard such a thing. (perhaps I don’t get out much! 🙂 )
What I have witnessed are Jewish people who are trying to reconnect with their identity, covenant responsibility, and religious practice, which has been stripped from them in various forms: our culture at large, and Church doctrines and dogma specifically. And Gentiles with his attitude preevent that healing.
The last sentence of the quote above illustrates the problem. That someone would be willing to give up Yeshua and everything they’ve ostensibly experienced via their faith in the God of Israel and His Servant, just to feel “included in the Jewish community” sounds more like a covetous attitude, and a desperate attempt to get their own needs met. These are precisely the kind of people that should not be anywhere near Jews, in my opinion.
The way I see it, Jews need to heal, and and they need to be around secure, well-balanced Gentiles who will help them do that. Gentile Christian people have a holy calling, as gentiles (!), and we are supposed to be a barrier of protection for them, not trying to swipe their identity and responsibilities; we have our own! And we can see what happens when we don’t fulfill it, i.e. pogroms, persecutions, expulsion, murder, and the Holocaust.
The failures of “the Church” cannot be fixed by gentiles demanding or adopting a Jewish identity. Paul did not teach people to stop being Gentiles, just the opposite! He said we are to remain as we are when we are called. He maintained distinction between Jew and Gentile (for God is not only the God of the Jews, but also the God of the Gentiles). It’s this distinction that brings life. Paul taught Gentiles to follow the Torah as it applies to them. The apostles in Acts 15 gave specific commandments for Gentiles to follow, and reading this list as written in the letter that went out to the churches come in the same order as they do in the Torah which obviously make us sojourners with Jews (i.e., Leviticus 17 and 18).
This distinction is not negative rather, it’s God-given.
It is my view that replacement theology has so permeated the doctrines of Christianity that once a believer realizes the error of it, they assume that only Jews matter to God, only Jewish worship is acceptable, only Jewish thought has truth, etc.
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I agree with everything you write here. My question is, what, if any, transitions are there in the relationship between Jew and believing Gentile between now and the Millennial kingdom, and then the same question in the transition between the end of the age and the eternal kingdom?
Another way, what does it mean to be ‘one Body?’ Tonight, pondering this I struck on an interesting thought: Is that an ‘echad’ Body or ‘yachid’ Body? (I am assuming ‘echad’ which means ‘one Body’ that maintains the differences in identity while sharing the covenants.)
Most want to paint it as either/or. Replacement or ‘no place.’ Few really stop to ponder the beauty of coming together and each bringing our strengths and walking in unity!
What does Paul mean when he says the ‘aliens and the strangers’ are no longer ‘excluded from the commonwealth of Israel?’ What does it mean to no longer be ‘strangers to the covenants of promise?’ What does it really mean to be ‘fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God?’
Ez. 47:21-23 seems to answer at least part of the Millennial question… But that is not an answer much of Judaism likes, while Christendom tries to push too far…
So, I agree with everything you said, but I also want to understand what Scripture really says/means relating to this ‘one Body, one faith, one Lord, one baptism.’ What should that look like? What will it look like. How does it maintain distinctive while also having equality among the sons, whether native-born or grafted in? (Even the tribes of Israel had different dialects and presumably, traditions, etc… Is that a clue?)
Blessings to you and thanks for coming by!!
Shalom!
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“My question is, what, if any, transitions are there in the relationship between Jew and believing Gentile between now and the Millennial kingdom…
Personally, I feel one of the great “blessings” we have as gentiles is the fact that we are not obligated to Torah observance the same way Jews are. Of course this is because we aren’t in literal covenant with God either. This is not to say Torah is bad, odious, or anything other than the beautiful revelation of God, but stop to consider the staggering implications! He is able to extend His salvation, and intended to do so all along, even to “uncircumcised” Gentiles! Consider the gorgeousness of the fact that we Gentiles who aren’t in covenant with Him nonetheless love the God of Israel, and are attracted to Him via His Servant Yeshua, and how amazing of a testimony that is to the world about the mighty God of Israel! Then consider how much opportunity that affords us to carry out His will, and our unique and holy identities of giving aid to people, which the Church has done, with the exception of the Jewish people, who we’ve failed terribly.
My answer as to how our relationship changes, between now and the “millennial kingdom” is that we have the opportunity to get our identities correct and fulfill a neglected but very holy calling. Look at the anti-Semitism all around us that is gaining momentum daily. If Christians become educated about replacement theology and then understand their faith from a Jewish perspective, and instead of trying to take on a Jewish identity, actually begin to fulfill our own purpose and resist the anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism, if we begin to truly dialogue with Jewish people in an intelligent way, (which cannot happen within a typical Christian paradigm) while maintaining our identity and our faith in Yeshua, a lot of healing would take place.
Conversely, if Gentiles are just interested in co-opting a Jewish identity, or worse, are willing to give up Yeshua and their calling to be accepted in to a Jewish community, no such healing happens.
“Few really stop to ponder the beauty of coming together and each bringing our strengths and walking in unity!”
Yes! And this is exactly how I felt during the women’s movement too. I didn’t resonate with the women who tried to just be one of the guys. I always wanted women to bring their/our strengths to the table and use them in conjunction with the strengths that men bring to the table.
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And, from your previous post,
This is one place I think we disagree. I do think that we are obligated to Torah as God’s standard of righteousness. He calls unequal weights and measures an abomination. Why would He then give us differing standards of righteousness? Further, why would He say that in the latter days the Torah will go out from Tziyon and the nations will come to learn His ways? Numerous verses in Numbers and other parts of the Torah speak to ‘one law for the native born and for the alien/sojourner.’
If I am not mistaken, Rabbinic tradition teaches that the Torah was in Gan Eden, and I have argued on here that it HAD to pre-exist Creation, making it a standard for all mankind. Where I see the distinction between Jew and Gentile, beyond the obvious ethnicity, is in the traditional practice of some of the Mitzvahs. Judaism has many Rabbinic ordinances that go above and beyond the Torah that are ‘indigenous’ to them.
How did the tribes and clans maintain distinctions for about 1000 years? Those distinctions were rooted in something different than who did which parts of Torah.
Ah, much to think about. Gotta get to work!
Shalom and may Abba bless you today in your work with your family and your excellent ministry on your blog! Thanks for standing guard!
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” I do think that we are obligated to Torah as God’s standard of righteousness. He calls unequal weights and measures an abomination. Why would He then give us differing standards of righteousness? Further, why would He say that in the latter days the Torah will go out from Tziyon and the nations will come to learn His ways? Numerous verses in Numbers and other parts of the Torah speak to ‘one law for the native born and for the alien/sojourner.’”
Pete,
I understand your point. My Pastor always said: “There’s no thinking higher than God’s thinking” as he referenced the Bible, encouraging the congregation to read it, and absorb it, and align their lives to it.
Naturally, when I realized that the Torah hadn’t been “annulled”, “nailed to the cross”, “fulfilled” – as in “set aside” – or “done away with” (let’s see… have I listed all of the Christian assumptions? OH silly me! or “nullified”!) then I also naturally assumed that it was His “standard of righteousness” too, and that all of His people need to keep it in like manner.
My understanding has become more nuanced however, rafter a lot of study and reflection because the Torah commandments always have a specific group that they’re aimed at. I was thinking about it again in the last portion ‘Bamidbar’ where God constantly distinguishes between the tribes, genders and even age group of who is to be counted, who will go to war, and then how Levites are exempted from all of this going on; they have other things to do, another purpose. And how any “outsiders” who come near are to be put to death (Num 1:51). In Chap 3 He says the “Levites are mine”, as are all the first born. Ch 4 about Kohen responsibilities based on specific bloodline, gender, and age, again.
This is just an example, but my point is that everyone had their seperate identities, and God made the distinctions for a reason. He also continued to distinguish between Israel and non-Israelites, even after the redemption out of Egypt, the Red Sea event, and the giving of the Torah – He still distinguished between Israelites and Gentiles.
Don’t get me wrong, some are obviously universal commandments, which is why the Sages/Rabbis came up with the 7 Noahide Laws. Also, God gives some commandments that are applicable to both Jew and foreigner/stranger/alien/sojourner (ger). But some are clearly not applicable and the distinctions are kept, yet without implying sin on the part of the Gentile, for example Deut 14:21.
Anyway, you’re right, there’s much to consider. Thank you Pete, and I pray you and yours are blessed.
-Ruth
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Shalom and blessings to you as well!
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SWJ,
Your argument is contradicting, you state that gentiles are not in covenant, thus are not responsible to the Torah, then you argue that gentiles are responsible to certain parts of the Torah. You can’t have it both ways. The Law of Moses is only applicable to those who are in covenant. You cannot make someone responsible to the regulations of a covenant if they never agreed to the covenant.
So from your perspective in summation, your definition of a gentile in Messiah, is no different than a gentile not in Messiah, in other words, the gentile who trust in Messiah has no covenant relationship with God, and holds no responsibility beyond the most basic human laws required of by all mankind. From your summation it sounds like the Messiah did nothing, unless we want to claim that no gentiles were saved before Messiah’s work, but that also limits Messiahs work to salvation for gentiles and nothing more.
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@Zion:
Actually what I said is that God did not covenant with Gentiles (obviously apart from the covenant with Noah, which is with all humanity) and that we gentile believers are not required to keep the Torah in the same manner as a Jew, which is the part you didn’t include.
The Abrahamic covenant, Sinai covenant, the New Covenant and the others in between are with Israel i.e., the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. This isn’t interpretation, it says so very plainly many times.
I also pointed out that every Torah command is aimed at a specific people group and many, most even, aren’t universal commands, even to the Jewish people. Therefore, how could they be universal to non Jews?
I also referenced that some ARE universal to all, which the Sages understood to be the Noahide Laws.
Additionally, God says some commandments – especially Lev 17-18– are incombabt upon all Israel and the sojourner (perhaps translated as alien, foreigner, etc) who sojourns with Israel.
Regarding the Apostolic Decree in Acts 15, if you look at the order these laws are listed in the letter that goes out to the churches, to instruct the Gentiles what is required of them, you’ll see they come in the exact order as they appear in Lev ch 17-18.
Paul was so adamant about the distinction between Jew and gentile and the fact Gentiles aren’t obligated to the Torah as Jews are, that the Church has misunderstood him to be antinomian. Yet, he never, nor did the other apostles, expect Jews to stop their covential obligation to it. The issue was that we Gentiles are not obligated, in the same way.
This is huge and this is amazing, and it requires us to look at what our roll and calling actually is, for it is different that the calling of a Jew, which has nothing to do will value, btw!
I mentioned some of my thoughts on that in the earlier comment.
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Sadly you seemed to have misunderstood, and you made the same error. You can’t have the Law of Moses contained in the Mosaic Covenant, such as Lev 17-18 apply to gentiles if they are not part of the covenant. That is the basic contradiction, you argue how all the covenants besides the covenant made with Noah are only made to Israel and you are correct, thus you cannot apply those covenant regulations to gentiles, unless you argue, that they are now part of the covenant. Thus going back to what I said, you are saying that Yeshua’s work has has done nothing concerning gentiles, than what was already available before before. I hope this makes more sense this time around.
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Zion, I pointed you to where the Torah itself says these laws are incombant upon Israel and “those who sojourn with them”. Those “sojourners we’re not in covenant with Him, as He has made it plain as day over and over again that it is Israel who He is in covenant with. You won’t be able to apprehend this within the paradigm of replacement theology or allorigzing the gentile Church as Israel.
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Ruth,
Here is my problem with this though process. Paul, unequivocally says, ‘Gentiles are now members of the commonwealth of Israel and are no longer strangers and aliens but fellow citizens with the saints in the household of God.’ (Eph. 2:11-22)
YES, the Church wrongly teaches ‘replacement.’ But, very clearly, we do come alongside and are grafted in, made a part of the household, and participants in the covenants. What does this look like? I do NOT think it looks like us becoming Jews or practicing Torah according to all the Rabbinic understanding, though they bring MUCH insight and wisdom to the table. But, I also do NOT think it means we are second class citizens. Nor, do I think God has different weights and measures since He calls that an abomination.
Lately, I have been digging out the many, many places in Scripture where there are clear examples demonstrating that Judah is NOT Israel. Judah is a very valuable and honored part of Israel, but, speaking of ‘replacement theology,’ Judah has not ‘replaced’ Israel. Many of these are interesting prophecies juxtaposing the two. In cases, even unfulfilled prophecies for one, while the other is fulfilled… Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel are full of these twists. Simply, just as the Church has ‘replacement’ error, I believe the Rabbis do as well… It is the nature of Abba revealing more in these last days. All of us will have to adjust our paradigm because none of us have it all right.
Here are a couple examples of the juxtaposition: Hosea 1:6-7; Jeremiah 3:11ff, etc…. Lots of these. Some 160 times it is Judah and Israel, Judah and Ephraim, Judah and Joseph, Judah and Samaria… Often in contradistinction.
Just more stuff to chew on! 😉
Shalom to you. I pray you have a great week!
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“But, I also do NOT think it means we are second class citizens. Nor, do I think God has different weights and measures since He calls that an abomination.”
Zion:
Thank you for clarifying.
From my perspective, the fact that believing Gentiles are brought near and made part of the commonwealth, promises and blessings are stipulated, I should have made that more clear.
But that doesn’t mean His covenant is with us. Nor does it = different weights and measures since the Torah is applicable differently, even to those in the covenant i.e., different groups: men, women, kohens, Levites etc. because men have different applications than women, does that mean women are 2nd class citizens!? Are Levites “better” than others? I don’t see it that way.
Btw, I agree Judah isn’t Israel. 🙂
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Zion,
I understand what you are saying… Do, please, deal gracefully. Ruth is a friend!! 🙂
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SWJ,
Claiming I hold to replacement theology without providing evidence is pointless. You are still failing to point out what exactly is different for a gentile who is in the Messiah. Which is the result of a faulty theology that ignores what Yeshua has accomplished, in your attempt to accept the normative view of gentiles within Judaism, you have denied that Yeshua has done anything different… The revelation of the Messiah and the mystery it involved concerning the gentiles was something that was not revealed, but to the Apostles, thus Judaism does not accept this revelation. Simply accepting Judaism’s view concerning gentiles relationship to Israel outside of the revelation of the Messiah and the mystery concerning gentiles, is an incomplete picture. This has nothing to do with replacement theology, but incomplete theology. It is without a doubt in my mind that it all belongs to Israel, Romans 9:4-5 cannot be more clear, thus the whole purpose of needing to be grafted in, there would truly be no need of grafting from your perspective. Because nothing would have changed. Paul’s words in Ephesians 2 become nothing more than a waste of page.
Now getting back to the points you are trying to make, according to Torah, no gentiles today are sojourning with Israel in the context it is being used within Torah, that being a national entity, whether visiting or living in the Land, under a theocratic government, this simply is not done today and cannot be done. Let’s go a bit further though, lets say it was possible, even though it is not, the word sojourner could represent a covenant member, the context must be considered as to who the sojourner is referring to, whether just a visitor or one who dwells within the gates, a covenant member. Applying proselyte conversion to the Torah would be anachronistic and invalid.
In Isaiah 56, we have a foreigner holding fast to God’s covenant, keeping the Sabbath, according to you, this is impossible, because a foreigner cannot hold fast the covenant, because the covenant is only given to Israel. But this denies the reality of what it means to be adopted, grafted, brought in, etc. It is not about replacement, instead it is about growth or expansion.
Your argument leaves too many questions unanswered and contradictions, to be accepted. And in my opinion, it completely ignores what Yeshua has done… I admire your desire to see Judaism as valuable, as I do also, but you should find balance in what has been revealed and what Judaism teaches.
Pete and SWJ, I am sorry if this seems harsh, I am a very direct person, even in person. 😛 But I don’t intend it to be mean, simply direct.
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Excellent points, Zion!
BTW, are you the one who commented on the original article?
Blessings.
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Pingback: One Law, One God, One Body A Critical Look at Why There is a Hebrew Roots Movement | natsab
Excellent article dealing with this very topic that someone forwarded to me a day or so ago:
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Zion,
You are making all sorts of wild assumptions and accusations, none of which are true. I am not holding to Judaism’s “normative view of Gentiles” – which is what’s apparently tripping you up – neither am I denying anything that Yeshua did, or it’s ramifications for us. In fact, I’ve not addressed that aspect at all. This also isn’t about defending “Judaism”, rather about recognizing who the covenant people are according to scripture, and seeing how we non-Jews fit in without the typical gymnastics of declaring them null and void, or somehow illegitimate, and inserting ourselves into a place that scripture doesn’t state.
Re: your accusation of an “Incomplete theology”: I’ve not attempted to lay out my complete view of theology Zion, nor would I do so within in a comment on a blog. That’s why I inserted quotations, to restrict my comments to that topic.
I have no idea how you arrive at the notion that I think there’s no need for grafting in, there’s every need for it, since God did not covenant with us. I’m not sure if you’re even reading what I wrote, particularly the one at June 1, 8:25 pm. If so, I have no idea how you jumped to the conclusions you did in your following comment.
From the beginning I’ve stated that: 1) the Torah is not incumbent upon Gentiles the same way that it is upon Jews. I’ve pointed out that this hardly makes us “2nd class citizens” because the commandments of the Torah always have a *specific audience* even among those it was literally given to. This point was made regarding the idea that Pete believes the a Torah is “God’s standard of righteousness.”
2) God did not covenant with us (except for the covenant with Noah).
You and I have different paradigms and cannot see each others perspective in a format such as this. The fact that you so easily make accusations and assumptions about things I’ve neither stated or actually believe, makes this pointless, as I have no intention of arguing with you or lowering myself to the same tactics.
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SWJ,
The issue here, is that you do not understand the implications of what you have stated, as you still do not see the contradiction you are bringing to the table. I am not sure what else to do here. Hopefully others can see it.
1) the Torah is not incumbent upon Gentiles the same way that it is upon Jews.
For example, this statement in itself is problematic. The Torah is not incumbent upon gentiles who are not in covenant with God, at all! Unless they are visiting or passing through the Land of Israel. Which disqualifies majority of all gentiles today as, neither of these requirements are being met, and neither are even possible under Israel’s current government.
If a gentile is in covenant, then the gentile is responsible to the Torah. Even Judaism agrees, they simply call the gentile a proselyte or a Jew, but the convert according to Torah is still a gentile and is responsible just like a native born.
We see this in the scenario of the mixed multitude who came out of Egypt and received the Torah with Israel at Mount Sinai, they joined, they did not replace.
I’ve pointed out that this hardly makes us “2nd class citizens” because the commandments of the Torah always have a *specific audience* even among those it was literally given to.
You are oversimplifying this statement and failing to first place gentiles under the responsibility of the Torah for your statement to even be correct. You cannot make gentiles responsible to Torah, without proving your case as to how they are responsible to a covenant they are not part of, as is your argument. See my point above, this is a contradiction you continue to maintain.
This point was made regarding the idea that Pete believes the a Torah is “God’s standard of righteousness.”
The scriptures makes this statement as well. In fact since the Torah will end up going to the nations, it is thus intended as the standard of righteousness.
Deut 4:6-8 teaches us, that the gentiles would look at Israel keeping His righteous Laws, and see how near God is to them, see the wisdom of God’s Law, and see how much greater God’s Laws are, than any the nations have devised… And would then seek Him and His righteous laws. What this means, is very simple. The Law of God is the standard of righteousness. It is not some cultural difference to keep Jews distinct from Gentiles, no it is the very righteous Laws of God.
Psalms says this over and over again. Psalm 19 the Law of the Lord is perfect. Psalm 119, anyone who seeks His commandments gains wisdom and understanding. The Law is righteous, good and true, and all should be seeking it, if they love righteousness, goodness and truth. It is not a very hard thing to understand. Sadly people are making the Law out to be nothing more than a cultural marker, as if it is just another law that exist among many others, with nothing special about it, it was only given to make Israel distinct, but this is a terrible lie and falsity.
2) God did not covenant with us (except for the covenant with Noah).
Exactly, so applying the Torah to gentiles, which we are referring to the Law of Moses contained within a Covenant gentiles are not naturally part of, is illegitimate. Can you see the contradiction you are proposing?
Honestly, I haven’t seen anything scripturally based from you, defining the place of gentiles within the Body of Messiah, you have simply pointed out what gentiles are not, yet with contradiction.
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A related point is this: If every living being is to stand before the Judge of all the earth and give account, by what standard will He judge them if not Torah? Or, if His Law is perfect (cited above) why would He use a different Law to judge others?
Or, still another way, if I am not mistaken, even the Rabbis claim the Torah existed in Gan Eden, yet we do not see ‘Hebrews’ on the scene for at least 1000 years. What was the standard God judged the earth by in Noach’s time?
Or, another way: If, as Scripture teaches, Yeshua was the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world, was His sacrifice less for those who don’t have to keep Torah than for those who do? Or, is the standard by which we are judged and therefore the value of the sacrifice to each of us the same? (See article ‘Before the foundation of the world’)
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Hey Pete,
I definitely believe in a divine law, being that God’s Law, is not different since the beginning, but is revealed more and more throughout history, and the greatest revelation of His law being given to Israel and that Law at one point will finally make its way throughout all the earth. So while there are different levels of judgment throughout time, such as Sodom and Gomorrah being shown more mercy than those who come after them, the law within its revelation to each individual and nation will vary. Just as a teacher will suffer a greater judgement than the student, more knowledge means more accountability and responsibility thus a greater judgement. Israel being the teacher and the nations being the ignorant students, we see why Israel has suffered such harsh judgments. However this does not mean the Law is different for the teacher or the student, but a different level of accountability is obviously at play.
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Zion, I didn’t comment on the plethora of issues you bring up, nor would I, because 1) a blog comment is not the place to lay out something so complex, 2) I was commenting to Pete who I find to be a very gracious man and in spite of some theological differences, I know he has a very tender heart and a heart for the Jewish people and to eschew replacement theology. 3) I believe people have a right to their own perspectives.
Replacement theology has jacked us all up, and even though I am as firmly against your theology as you are against mine -if not more so – and I could poke holes into your paradigm all day long, and greatly demean you while doing so, I chose not to because we are all growing and need time and study to sort it all out. I believe it’s the legacy of RT that even when we find out the Torah was not abrogated, we still have a lot to sort.
In other words, I don’t engage in some of these issues online, it’s sort of a personal policy, because they lead to fights and I’m not interested in defaming Yeshua’s name or reputation. Believe what you wish, and think about me what you will, I did not and will not submit my “complete” theology to you because you are in a different paradigm than I am therefore it would serve no purpose.
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SWJ,
You submitted what you thought, thus I was addressing the contradictions your theology raises and the errors present, I presented evidence as to why the points you raised are in error. When you put your thoughts out for all to see, people have a right to address them, the best thing to do in your case, since you do not like to discuss what you believe, would be to keep your thoughts to yourself, but that would be very isolating…
You make a lot of claims, but you do not back them up, regardless of what you believe, it is very important to back up your claims. Just a tip of advice.
Anyways, have a nice day!
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Zion,
Straight forward or not, grace is more important that theological precision. At the end of the day, you two are fellow heirs and both grafted into a common root.
I continue to encourage gentleness.
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Zion, I have given ample “backup” to the thoughts I’ve expressed, but you would need to read my comments without imposing your own presuppositions and biases. (For example, I’ve said many times that Gentiles aren’t obligated to the Torah in the same way a Jew is, and yet you keep truncating my remark and accuse me of saying Gentiles aren’t obligated to the Torah, at all.)
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SWJ,
Zion, I have given ample “backup” to the thoughts I’ve expressed, but you would need to read my comments without imposing your own presuppositions and biases. (For example, I’ve said many times that Gentiles aren’t obligated to the Torah in the same way a Jew is, and yet you keep truncating my remark and accuse me of saying Gentiles aren’t obligated to the Torah, at all.)
I pointed out the fact, that you said: “gentiles are not in covenant”, and then you claimed that: “gentiles are responsible to parts of a covenant that they are not part of”…
I never once said this: ” you accuse me of saying Gentiles aren’t obligated to the Torah, at all.” Nope, I never accused you of that.
I said your argument is contradicting and yet you are still not seeing the contradiction you are making. I don’t know what else to do here, does anyone else want to chime in and help out SWJ see the dilemma…?
SWJ, are you intentionally ignoring the contradiction or do you really not see it?
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Lol, Zion, you cannot show me where God makes a covenant with Gentiles. (Other than With Noah as previously stated) he didn’t. Even the New Covenant (Jer 31 and Ez 36) is with Judah and Israel.
I said that all humanity will be held accountable for the laws that are incumbent upon all people. This fits into Pete’s argument about the Torah being God’s standard of righteousness, yet without much nuance. The Sages called the universal commandments the Noahide Laws. They were most likely in place at the time of the Jerusalem Council and so, how do we understand the extra 4 laws the Pillars (James, Peter and John) give to the Gentile believers in the Apostolic Decree? Then we go to where those laws are found in the Torah and discover that they are listed in the same order as the letter that went out to the churches. Then, we notice that they all include a provision that they are for the Israelite and the sojourner who sojourns with them.
But you complained that no one can literally be a sojourner now, it’s impossible you say. All I can say to this is that we aren’t literally “grafted in” to Israel either. Everything about our connection to Israel, who are his physical people, is spoken in figurative language and is “spiritual”. I do NOT think that makes us “less than”, “2nd class”, or any less “real” regarding our purpose, calling, and blessings that we will receive by our spiritual attachment to Israel, but we are distinct and I believe it’s for a holy calling that we’ve largely missed.
Now, if you cannot process this I don’t know what to tell you, we will just have to disagree, which is fine by me.
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SWJ,
Lol, Zion, you cannot show me where God makes a covenant with Gentiles. (Other than With Noah as previously stated) he didn’t. Even the New Covenant (Jer 31 and Ez 36) is with Judah and Israel.
You need to pay attention, I never said God makes a covenant with Gentiles, there are no gentile covenant’s other than the covenant made with Noah which is by extension, not even national… thus the need of being grafted.
They were most likely in place at the time of the Jerusalem Council and so, how do we understand the extra 4 laws the Pillars (James, Peter and John) give to the Gentile believers in the Apostolic Decree?
The Noahide laws did not exist any formality during this time period. It was a later invention.
Then we go to where those laws are found in the Torah and discover that they are listed in the same order as the letter that went out to the churches.
You just said they were based on the Laws of Noah and thus you cannot point to the Law of Moses… the Law of Moses is contained within the Mosaic Covenant, and unless you are party to that covenant in some way, then you cannot be held responsible, this basic 101.
But you complained that no one can literally be a sojourner now, it’s impossible you say.
Can you show otherwise? No, the requirements in Torah cannot be met, that is a fact, not an opinion.
All I can say to this is that we aren’t literally “grafted in” to Israel either. Everything about our connection to Israel, who are his physical people, is spoken in figurative language and is “spiritual”.
There has to be some form of literal implication, or it makes the connection absolutely worthless. What you are doing is over spiritualizing the text, just like those who support Replacement Theology, they ignore any literal implication, thus literal or physical Israel has been replaced by “spiritual” Israel… While clearly the use of metaphors are being used to associate our connection to Israel, there still has to be some form of literal implication. Have you considered what that is or what that looks like?
Also consider that Gentiles have joined Israel throughout time, during the Exodus, a mixed multitude joined, during the time of Solomon, a multitude of gentiles joined, etc. Thus Israel cannot solely be defined by natural descendants, or you delegitimize all those who have joined in the past, who were not natural descendants. Adoption is the name of the game. While gentiles do not naturally have access to the blessings, the promises, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the Temple, the Messiah, etc, they have access to them all, if they choose to serve God. Paul lays this out in Ephesians 2, defining what Gentiles are now in the Messiah and how much greater the access is.
I do NOT think that makes us “less than”, “2nd class”, or any less “real” regarding our purpose, calling, and blessings that we will receive by our spiritual attachment to Israel, but we are distinct and I believe it’s for a holy calling that we’ve largely missed.
I don’t consider myself 2nd class either, so no worries, however I am interesting in knowing what you believe our purpose, calling and blessings are, based on scripture… Just saying you are connected to Israel spiritually, means nothing, you must have some literal definition for what this looks like?
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Oh,forgot to say: my pov is that the Apostolic Decree elevates gentile believers to a different status. We are not Jews, yet we also are not “rank and file” Gentiles. We attached ourselves to Israel via their Messiah. The “Pillars” decreed we have 4 extra laws to keep. (As I said, it is likely some version of the Noahide Laws were already in place at the time of Yeshua so it would be in addition to them.)
“Sojourners with Israel” are under the protection of Israel, and have more direct obligation to the Torah (and blessings) than “regular” Gentiles. Now, if you were to entertain this concept (I’m not holding my breath 🙂 ) you will eventually ask yourself, if God maintains distinction and it isn’t about creating 2 nd class citizens etc, then what is our calling? What was the purpose of maintaining distinction? Perhaps then you will consider history and see how far the church has failed in our calling.
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